Thanks to all for the input on neck lube and my chances of needing it (or not) for better SD/ES. Beside neck lube testing I am also working with neck tension. I am getting indications that more neck tension is getting better SD/ES. Going to check that as well on this load and hopefully see some positive results.
Working with neck lube as a means to reduce SD/ES
- Thread starter done111
- Start date
Of course.
I was only measuring velocity spread across 2 batches of cases with a different bullet interference fit. They just happened to have different pull forces and average velocities.
I followed the COVAAT acronym comparing two systems with several variables to see how one variable changed velocities. Accuracy difference not compared.
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dmoran
Donovan Moran
Even inducing 1/2 the 30-lbs from .0015" interference (neck sizing) myself would deem excessive, and would be looking for a solution to get the friction down to more in the line of 10-lbs max of pull from .0015" interference between the two batches of cases to test.
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is anyone aware of any other real world testing done on decreasing neck tension and it's correlation to accuracy and velocity? I have read that having too much can cause bullet jacket damage and that .004 is about the maximum recommended. What I would like to read is more studies similar to Litze's. It would need to be by someone using a statistically significant number of shots and preferably using two or more common cartridges. They would also need to be using a Labradar, Oehler, or CED Millennium chrono for accuracy
dmoran
Donovan Moran
@Bart B.
A little more fallow up from me: back in the day when I was first getting started reloading for competition, I likely induced excessive friction as well by not giving much of a hoot to neck preparation. Especially when I compare those days to these later years, where I spend more time preparing my case necks (each cycle) then I do any other process in reloading. Perfection in case necks is huge to me, and fully understand its effectiveness for aggregate type consistency, that was widely over looked and taken for granted back in the day !.!.!
A little more fallow up from me: back in the day when I was first getting started reloading for competition, I likely induced excessive friction as well by not giving much of a hoot to neck preparation. Especially when I compare those days to these later years, where I spend more time preparing my case necks (each cycle) then I do any other process in reloading. Perfection in case necks is huge to me, and fully understand its effectiveness for aggregate type consistency, that was widely over looked and taken for granted back in the day !.!.!
Had no interest in that.
Only its direct effect on velocity average.
Therefore, no interest in changing another variable to reduce the effects of that one.
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dmoran
Donovan Moran
@JimSC
While I respect your question and desire to see test results, can't help but think it is more of an individual aspect, and no set standard of neck prep will serve all the same results. Just to many variations from ones persons reloading practices, equipment, neck thickness', neck hardness, etc., etc. to the next persons scenario's.
At the same time, believe a lot of people do test those aspects, and some have shared those results. Personally believe it should be done with every bullet being tried, bullet lot, seating depth, and lot of cases.
Sort to speak, and for examples:
- will .002" neck tension on a Sta-moly bullet jacket react the same as on a J4 bullet jacket?
- how much indifference in .002" neck tension on 0.0005" smaller or larger diameter bullets ?
- annealed necks -v- 3rd firing -v- 10th firing -v- never annealed ?
- indifference's from a 30-cal bullet & case neck... to a 6.5... to a 6mm?
Etc.....
Likely not the answers your looking for, but this is how I feel: someone else's neck tension/prep tested results have no baring on my own. That in actuality could even result in complete opposition of my own.
Just my 2-Cents
While I respect your question and desire to see test results, can't help but think it is more of an individual aspect, and no set standard of neck prep will serve all the same results. Just to many variations from ones persons reloading practices, equipment, neck thickness', neck hardness, etc., etc. to the next persons scenario's.
At the same time, believe a lot of people do test those aspects, and some have shared those results. Personally believe it should be done with every bullet being tried, bullet lot, seating depth, and lot of cases.
Sort to speak, and for examples:
- will .002" neck tension on a Sta-moly bullet jacket react the same as on a J4 bullet jacket?
- how much indifference in .002" neck tension on 0.0005" smaller or larger diameter bullets ?
- annealed necks -v- 3rd firing -v- 10th firing -v- never annealed ?
- indifference's from a 30-cal bullet & case neck... to a 6.5... to a 6mm?
Etc.....
Likely not the answers your looking for, but this is how I feel: someone else's neck tension/prep tested results have no baring on my own. That in actuality could even result in complete opposition of my own.
Just my 2-Cents
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@ Dmoran
I agree with most of your post but I would still enjoy seeing some more testing. At the moment I am getting good results on 2 rifles with what some here would call minimal prep. No turning and no lubing, annealing is now back to an occasional thing and not after every firing.
I agree with most of your post but I would still enjoy seeing some more testing. At the moment I am getting good results on 2 rifles with what some here would call minimal prep. No turning and no lubing, annealing is now back to an occasional thing and not after every firing.
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I have a question for you benchrest guys, what more neck prep steps can be done besides, trimming, turning and annealing?
I have noticed on some of my 6x47 necks with the above prep done that still there are different seating pressures when I seat bullets with a Wilson/arbor seating die. I turned .0005 off after 6 or so firings which helped, then after that I separated the brass that wouldn't play nice.
Most are pretty well the same now but I just wanted to find out how far you guys go with this neck prep thing?
dmoran
Donovan Moran
@steve123
I'd tell you but then I would have to ____________.
Use your imagination when it come to brushing, coating, lube, polishing, qualifying, seating force, annealing temperature, hardness, expansion, how much to size, amount of tension, etc.. Take nothing for granted and test. Look at each different component as a variable, that warrants more testing. If you have an accurate enough rifle and load, you will see the relevance's to your own scenario's, and be able to fine tune the load with your preparations.
Myself fail to see as much when testing at close distances, but that could just be me !.!.!
I'd tell you but then I would have to ____________.
Use your imagination when it come to brushing, coating, lube, polishing, qualifying, seating force, annealing temperature, hardness, expansion, how much to size, amount of tension, etc.. Take nothing for granted and test. Look at each different component as a variable, that warrants more testing. If you have an accurate enough rifle and load, you will see the relevance's to your own scenario's, and be able to fine tune the load with your preparations.
Myself fail to see as much when testing at close distances, but that could just be me !.!.!
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offhand I can think of reaming, and lubing. Unless you want to count the various methods of sizing. Collet, Bushing, FL, neck only, body etc. on which everyone has a opinion. For a month or so I decapped on a universal, then used a body die and followed up with a Lee Collet. Talk about over complicating. I am not a benchrest guy, I am just beginning to learn long range shooting as a retirement hobby so take anything I post with a grain of salt
My regimen is to decap with full length bushing die, clean, anneal, then run over an expander mandrel just before loading. I no longer tumble with stainless every time I clean but will ultrasonic every time. With LRP brass in 6 SLR es= 20 same procedure with 6 XC SRP es = 8. Laurie Holland's article on the difference with primers is a good study. (Targetshooter.com)
H
Really can see much difference inside 600 yds.
H
Really can see much difference inside 600 yds.
Does "best pressure peak" mean most repeatable time-pressure curve shape?
Or something else?
@steve123
I'd tell you but then I would have to ____________.
Use your imagination when it come to brushing, coating, lube, polishing, qualifying, seating force, annealing temperature, hardness, expansion, how much to size, amount of tension, etc.. Take nothing for granted and test. Look at each different component as a variable, that warrants more testing. If you have an accurate enough rifle and load, you will see the relevance's to your own scenario's, and be able to fine tune the load with your preparations.
Myself fail to see as much when testing at close distances, but that could just be me !.!.!
Ha, those secrets are kept to the extreme.
I think part of my original disparity was neck turning at different temperatures or maybe too much tension between the mandrel and neck causing heat build up, but don't know for sure. That was 11 years ago.
I have a odd regimen going on. Every 2 firings I won't do anything to the brass, but the 3rd I'll SS clean, trim, debur/chamfer, lube inside neck with Neco via cotton swab after charging.
Plus I have custom dies/Warner and Whidden.
I don't know if I can talk myself into doing anything else, lol. Good grief, some of you guys polish the inside of your necks??!!
dmoran
Donovan Moran
I can't see real well but the back cases look like they are polished, they are shaded somewhat. Cases in the front are virgin, assuming so since the necks are banged up???
Enough peak fast enough that minor variance in it doesn't take you out of tune.
Way easier to do with an underbore and high starting pressures, than an overbore and low starting pressures.
With this, normal neck tension variance means less to a jammed 6PPC, peaking at ~75Kpsi, than a 243Win seated off the lands, peaking at ~60Kpsi & later in time.
With the 243 things are way slower. Neck tension affects a wider pressure peak, affecting barrel time.
This is why I suggest that we could not declare neck tension as significant, or not, across the board.
I've shot matches at 600 through 1000 yards with only a few ounces of bullet pull. Extra soft seated long to set back when chambered. Very accurate, but needed special handling as jarring a box of them easily displaces the bullet in its neck.
Under- and overbore relating to bore capacity charge weights?
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