Are these cases suitable for FL die sizing?

[fredo]

<snip>
Therefore, it is possible to have a CHAMBER that is on the BIG end on one spec and SMALL end on another spec.

The standard dies made by die makers are INTENDED to (when set to cam over) reduce the case no matter how thin or thick that brass wall may be (you should be thinking of the concept of tolerance stacking right now) to fit into the SMALLEST chamber in ALL measurements.

So, when we add up all the measurements, all the variables, all the differences in brass lots, and toss in a dose of shellholder, brass aging and springiness, it is no wonder that you may see that your one, two, three, four times fired brass has yet to reach its full "length" from base to shoulder, given that you are cold swaging it every time after firing with an adjustable (read changeable) die.
<snip>

EXCELLENT explanation that inexperienced reloaders would do well to heed.

Finding harmony between factory reloading dies and chamber/reamer specs, when dealing with various lots/brands of brass, is not always an easy proposition...

 

[Bart B.]

4 times and neck sizing should get that case (minus springback) dang close to "chamber size".

Is that within .0015 inch?

If so, that's what I've got with new ammo or cases hand loaded to max with one firing. Good enough for my objectives, conditions and standards. Often .001 inch less than chamber GO gauges the bolt just closes on without binding
.

 

[CT10ring]

I have a production chambered Sako 6PPC. I've put several hundred rounds through it as I've learned the basics of hand loading and load development. How did it shoot & group? The gun came with some brass, a neck sizing die, and an unused standard Redding FL die. Naturally this works reasonably well but could be better. What do you mean by better? How does the rifle group?

I played with the included FL die a bit but it's pushing the body in and not touching the shoulder. The next step is a FL die with neck bushings. I haven't gotten an FL die made because the case headspace doesn't seem to have stopped growing. See attached.
View attachment 1044242
Should I keep forming these sample cases until the case headspace stops growing? Or should I just get a die made now. What about the grouping /accuracy ?, and what issue are you trying to solve?

Maybe the better question is how to measure the difference between case headspace and chamber headspace?

Suggest you size 1 piece fired brass as a test:
Set your die so it touches the base of your shellholder on the downstroke.
turn 1/16 revolution further "down".
Size a case.
remove your firing pin ass'y from bolt.
test chamber the sized case w bolt/no firing pin.
you can feel the resistance -or not - of the brass.
make die adjustments accordingly.
note the bolts "play" in the receiver when the brass is chambered- you can gauge / tell if the case is too tight or loose by the travel of the bolt-it is effectively a gauge.

I have a Sako 6ppc USA & use standard Redding type S die (ID- 6ppc USA) w a .264" bushing. works like a charm.
Suggest you use use your F/L die w bushings. How are you seating bullets?

Sounds to me like you only need to screw down your die a tad to hit the shoulder.
Could be very simple to solve....X ? problem.

 

[snert]

Is that within .0015 inch?

If so, that's what I've got with new ammo or cases hand loaded to max with one firing. Good enough for my objectives, conditions and standards. Often .001 inch less than chamber GO gauges the bolt just closes on without binding
.

Bart, I honestly don't know if that guess is within .0015 inch. I know this may sound bad, but I have been okay with "close enough", as in the bolt was tight, now it isn't and it was just a +2 Comp Shellholder ago. Humbly, I can't shoot good nuff to tell the difference. I use the COMP shellholders because I like them for the stupid simple way they work, and I do not ask my brass if it is springy or not...I am content with "close".

 

[CT10ring]

To quote Col. Kurtz " The horror. The horror."

I love that film. unrelated. but wow, charlie don't surf. epic.

 

[Bart B.]

I honestly don't know if that guess is within .0015 inch.

if you've got a case headspace measuring tools, make a set of full length sized cases each one .001" longer. Get a GO headspace gauge ($30 ?) then find the case that measures the same as it does. Label that case GO and each successive size one .001" greater, or smaller.

Now you've a set to check chambers. Strip the bolt and let the bolt handle weight close the bolt. Chamber headspace is between the CLOSE case and NO CLOSE case. Bolt closes or don't . Can be precise to within .001 inch.

Size fired cases to headspace about .001 to .002 inch less than the CLOSE case.

 

[fguffey]

Whoa

Wingnut0

How much short of chamber headspace does a new case with a max load fired once have its headspace set?

My cases do not have head space but I have fired test loads with cases that had no memory of what they were before I pulled the trigger. And then there is that part about measuring before and again after, I have fired cases that had .005" case head expansion and then I tested a few receivers that were considered questionable, I was accused of being involved in some scary stuff. I said not if time is a factor and no one understood what time had to do with it, so I finished testing the 4 receivers, four receivers, one barrel, one bolt and .001" difference in length between the four chambers from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face.

F. Guffey

 

[M-61]

I said not if time is a factor and no one understood what time had to do with it,

I'm in that group that fails to grasp the 'time' element you have stated. Can you elaborate?

 

[22DASHER]

Can you elaborate?

Why, just why!? Don’t feed him anymore......

 

[dgeesaman]

So, in an effort to help the OP, I am going to take a crack at it.

I do appreciate it.

So I suggest you shoot that brass four times, neck size it each time, let it "grow" till bolt closing is tough, then adjust your FL die in increments (you can use Redding COMP shellholders to do this with known measured increments or you can guess by using the twisty turny approach to the die) and then test it in your chamber each time till you get easy bolt drop. Stop and lock your die.

So here's my thought. All of the dies size the body down to 0.430" at the shoulder. The fully fired brass is 0.436" here. If I back or space the die out to size to 0.434 or 0.435", the die shoulder will be far away from brass and I'll have no control over the shoulder. This explains why the die with the deepest shoulder made the shoulder do funny stuff. I think I need an FL die that's wider on the body.

In this fashion you are taking a generic die and adjusting it to just size that case enough to fit, but no more.

Or, fire that brass three times and send it in for a custom die from Whidden.

Or Harrell's, or Neil Jones. Or send my Forster die to Forster. JLC Precision makes and modifies factory dies. So many options.

 

[dgeesaman]

Sounds to me like you only need to screw down your die a tad to hit the shoulder.
Could be very simple to solve....X ? problem.

I did size some samples (see post 8) and while I was overworking the brass, it's clear that all 3 dies run the body down to 0.430" close to the shoulder. So if I reset the dies to just bump the shoulder, I'll still be working the body down 0.005" each time. I think I need a die that's wider at the shoulder.

 

[CT10ring]

The guys posting prior have much more experience than I do - seems like the post BartB #46 has a great suggestion.

As well as sending your fired brass off for a custom die to match your brass to YOUR chamber to get the sizing measurements you want/need...

From your original post, I'm not sure that you have a shooting/accuracy/problem?

I just happen to have a Sako 6ppc USA...fwiw. My Redding dies work well so far...

 

[snert]

Or you can rebarrel it and have the smith make a die....

With the current set-up, you have a factory (albeit a nice one) rifle with a factory spec chamber made in a production line, using production line dies with stacking tolerances, and it all adds up to a combo capable of maybe 1/3 inch groups. Not good enough, buy a custom BR in PPC and be done with it.

Send the Sako my way, I can live with it.

Maybe do a chamber cast and see if someone will make you a die?

Or keep fiddling with your dies till you get brass that is coming close to fitting well. Just don't ever change brass....

I guess what I am saying is you are looking for a more perfect set up with very little potential for real improvement in group size.

Please do not mis-read what i am saying as sarcastic, because I am NOT being snide or sharp. I just think there is limited results avaialable from chasing this too far.

Best,

Snert

 

[Steve morgan]

This isn't his busiest forum. Has 1000's on others, with +6000 on at least one other.
And remember: He is the only one !.!.!

Yeah the only one with no headspace

 

[dgeesaman]

The guys posting prior have much more experience than I do - seems like the post BartB #46 has a great suggestion.

As well as sending your fired brass off for a custom die to match your brass to YOUR chamber to get the sizing measurements you want/need...

From your original post, I'm not sure that you have a shooting/accuracy/problem?

I just happen to have a Sako 6ppc USA...fwiw. My Redding dies work well so far...

This Sako is my first centerfire, and of course my first experience building handloads. My goal is maximum accuracy with this equipment.

My accuracy is good with neck sizing, but as the brass takes on more firings it's starting to stick on the body. I want to set up for high quality full length sizing so that I can keep the brass consistent in one operation.

Looking at the results of sizing my brass with my existing dies, I'll end up with too much sizing. Not a big problem but certainly not optimal.

David

 

[CT10ring]

Sounds like the answer is a custom Harrell's or Neil Jones or Whidden or X die, made from your brass.
My Sako came with a test target - .113" / 3 shots, fwiw.

 

[snert]

Ora body die honed to our chamber

 

[dgeesaman]

Ora body die honed to our chamber

I'm sending my Forster to Jim Christensen for honing and a neck bushing.