Are these cases suitable for FL die sizing?

[dgeesaman]

I have a production chambered Sako 6PPC. I've put several hundred rounds through it as I've learned the basics of hand loading and load development. The gun came with some brass, a neck sizing die, and an unused standard Redding FL die. Naturally this works reasonably well but could be better.

I played with the included FL die a bit but it's pushing the body in and not touching the shoulder. The next step is a FL die with neck bushings. I haven't gotten an FL die made because the case headspace doesn't seem to have stopped growing. See attached.

Should I keep forming these sample cases until the case headspace stops growing? Or should I just get a die made now.

Maybe the better question is how to measure the difference between case headspace and chamber headspace?

 

[Bart B.]

Measure a fired case supplied. Full lengthwise it. Make sure the shell holder stops hard against the die then measure case headspace. Post the result.

 

[jepp2]

You could either take a bit of metal off the bottom of the die (they're kind'a hard) or polish the shell holder. This all assumes the shell holder is pressed hard against the bottom of the die.

A way to determine if this step is necessary - first remove the decapping pin, then slide trimmed shim stock under the case head, to make the case go deeper into the die. Should should allow you to move the shoulder back several thousandth's more than you can currently.

 

[dgeesaman]

Measure a fired case supplied. Full lengthwise it. Make sure the shell holder stops hard against the die then measure case headspace. Post the result.

Reading past the auto corrects, I believe you want me to FL size a fired case and measure it like the others to see what sizing the standard die produces? I can do that tonight.

David

 

[Bart B.]

Reading past the auto corrects, I believe you want me to FL size a fired case and measure it like the others to see what sizing the standard die produces? I can do that tonight.

Yes. Thanks. Then we'll have a good reference to start from.

 

[dmoran]

​

 

[pirate ammo]

View attachment 1044311

watch it ,,be careful

 

[dgeesaman]

Reading past the auto corrects, I believe you want me to FL size a fired case and measure it like the others to see what sizing the standard die produces? I can do that tonight.

David

I have too many dies. I blame clearance sales. I took the 5x fired Sako set and resized two in each of my 3 FL dies.

I set each one to press the shellholder firmly to the die body. I used a very light coat of Imperial wax on each. I got some erratic case headspace lengths (one grew!), but perhaps that's to be expected when moving the brass this much.

It seems these dies reduce the upper body diameter .005-.006", the middle body diameter .002-.003", and the base diameter by .001". Case headspace ranged from .008" shorter to .003" longer.

On the upside, the "longer" case now has a narrow body and a case headspace length that is about as long as the longest fired brass. I tested it in the chamber and it showed some resistance to bolt closure, which means I have a better idea of the chamber headspace length.

 

[Bart B.]

See what happens when you do all the right stuff!!!

 

[dgeesaman]

See what happens when you do all the right stuff!!!

Dumb luck I got a long shoulder out of the batch. (What happened? Does that die not size for case headspace?)

It seems these factory dies are far too heavy on body sizing - even if I keep the brass backed out enough of the die to lightly bump the shoulder, I’ll still be oversizing the body every time.

I was thinking about buying a Harrell’s FL die - is that a good option for this chamber?

David

 

[Bart B.]

(What happened? Does that die not size for case headspace?)

It does if the shellholder touches the die when a fired case is sized and case headspace is less after it's so sized.

If you could find a 6PPC chamber drawing that is the standard, then compare your fired cases to it, if those cases dimensions are bigger than those in the drawing, that would be a reason they size down so much.

Some commercial chambers are bigger than they need to be. Just like barrel bore and groove diameters.

 

[hrlincoln]

Dumb luck I got a long shoulder out of the batch. What happened?

It seems these factory dies are far too heavy on body sizing

I was thinking about buying a Harrell’s FL die - is that a good option for this chamber?

David

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/die-issues-when-bumping-shoulders/

A Harrell's FL die would be an excellent choice...article is a good read if you haven't seen it.

 

[fguffey]

Maybe the better question is how to measure the difference between case headspace and chamber headspace?

Life in the world of reloading gets complicated when the case has head space. I do not know where you are getting your reloading instructions from but someone has got you in a dead run.

After I form a case I fire it, after firing it becomes a once fired case. Information gathered from the fired case will tell me the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face. I have no ideal how you are firing cases in your SAKO without forming the case to the chamber; unless you are using cute methods and or techniques like toile paper and or cereal. When I form cases I go for it.

And then there is another thought, I do not have to fire my cases 5 times to get them fully grown, I do not have to start over after 5 firings by full length sizing, I have never figured out to start over with a case that has been fired 5 times. It seems the case is worked hardened and has taken on the ability to resist sizing. I know, there are those that claim they have or they have a friend or know a friend that has a fried that has fired a case 45 times and the case still looks brand new.

I do believe a reloader should be able to determine the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face, they have cases, they have a press and they have dies. And then there is that basic understanding about closing bolts; the bolt will close and the bolt will not close.

And then there is the extractor on most SAKOs, big claw Mauser like, my favorite design.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

If you could find a 6PPC chamber drawing that is the standard, then compare your fired cases to it, if those cases dimensions are bigger than those in the drawing, that would be a reason they size down so much.

Some commercial chambers are bigger than they need to be. Just like barrel bore and groove diameters.

And then there are good habits, a reloader should learn to measure before and again after.

It is very difficult to get a reloader to form good habits when sizing a case. O suggest the reloader measure the gap between the top pf the shell holder and bottom of the die, if the die does not make it to the shell holder when sizing the case does not get returned to minimum length/full length sized.
There are times I adjust the die off the shell holder to compensate for a long chamber; again, I have one 30/06 with a chamber that is .016" longer than a minimum length/full length sized case. On that one I adjust the die .014" off the shell holder to get 'that magic .002" clearance'. And? there is no reloader that understands how easy it is to size a case when the case head is backed off .014".

There are exceptions; I have 30/06 casas with case heads that are .200" thick from the cup above the web and I have 30/06 cases that are .260" thick from the cup above the web to the case head.

F. Guffey

 

[dmoran]

He couldn't resist......

 

[fguffey]

It seems these factory dies are far too heavy on body sizing

In the beginning of the Internet and reloading there were many members that thought the brand of the shell holder should match the brand of die, I never got involved because I measured the deck height of my shell holders, my shell holders have a deck height of .125". If my shell holders do not have a deck height of .125" I should have paid more for it because Redding charges more for shell holders that do not have a deck height of .125".

I do have shell holders that 'just ain't right', they were made in the '50s by PACIFIC. When testing dies and their ability to return a case to minimum length there is a thing called case head protrusion.

F. Guffey

 

[Bart B.]

Yes, a full length sizing die's headspace can be different across all shellholders. The all don't bump the same.

Same with neck sizing dies using shoulder bumping bushings like those made by Neil Jones. Their position in the press determines neck sized case headspace after bumping shoulders.

Oh my god!!! Just remembered. My Dad was a house building contractor and his real estate man was Kenneth Bump. Kenny's brother was our family doctor, Forrest Bump. Both were good people. Perhaps their influence on me as a teenager bumping shoulders with them was worthwhile.

 

[fguffey]

A way to determine if this step is necessary - first remove the decapping pin, then slide trimmed shim stock under the case head, to make the case go deeper into the die. Should should allow you to move the shoulder back several thousandth's more than you can currently.

Maybe the better question is how to measure the difference between case headspace and chamber headspace?

I have given up on smiths and reloaders being able to measure the distance from the datum to the case head; I have no problem. I use the correct datum as in 'measure from' to the case head. My cases do not have head space, I use the length of the case from the datum/shoulder to the case head to off set the length of the chamber from the datum/shoulder to the bolt face. I do not have head space this and head space that and I call a comparator a comparator; and then there is something I do that must come naturally, I verify gages. I found it difficult to verify tools that reloaders called head space gages.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

Oh my god!!! Just remembered. My Dad was a house building contractor and his real estate man was Kenneth Bump. Kenny's brother was our family doctor, Forrest Bump. Both were good people. Perhaps their influence on me as a teenager bumping shoulders with them was worthwhile.

That was silly, you are missing press instructions, before the Internet there was no bump. There were bump presses and non bump presses. The cam over press was listed as a bump press, the non cam over press was not a bump press.
Just like case head space, in the beginning the case did not have head space and then came the Internet; that was when reloaders started making this stuff up. About the time reloaders talked their way into a hole they were told the bump press had to be adjusted differently because of the bump, the bump press bumps twice, once on the way up and once when the ram is lowered.

The bump press is adjusted on the bump, not before, not after. I am the only reloader with a Rock Chucker that does not cam over. If my Rock Chucker camed over it would lock up when attached to a Piggy Back 11 attachment.

F. Guffey

 

[Wingnut00]

After I form a case I fire it, after firing it becomes a once fired case.

Whoa