Short necked virgin brass. Is this to be expected?
- Thread starter FatOldMIHunter
- Start date
You aren't looking for answers. You want to argue with everyone responding to your questions. Everything is made to +/- dimensions. This has been ongoing for 11 days and neither Hornady or Lapua has contacted you
The maximum and minimum SAAMI specs are recommendations for manufacturers, not official numbers. How accurate and repeatable is that caliper you are using? Looking at the photo you posted, it appears you are pushing pretty hard on the thumbwheel.Edit: The anvil base attached to your caliper is also made to a +/- dimension. The number you are using is roughly 1/64". Do you honestly believe that is going to be a heart breaker in that factory chamber? The average human hair is .004
The way you have that bullet seated in the case certainly appears to exceed the recommended COL. Whether the case/neck is at SAAMI maximum, or, below SAAMI minimum, you are trying to exceed the recommended COL.
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Yes, I am. Relevant answers. If I'm wasting my time looking for on-spec virgin brass or even brass that is a little closer to on-spec, that's something I want to know and it's the kind of answer that people with experience with virgin brass might be able to provide. Isn't it SOP to measure virgin brass before and after the first FLS? And isn't it reasonable to expect it to be on-spec?
A few people have been stating the obvious. Some have been confused about what it means for brass to be below minimum spec. Some seem to have been making excuses for the off-spec brass manufacturers. And one seems to be fretting over how long a thread he doesn't need to be reading is getting.
This has been ongoing for 11 days and neither Hornady or Lapua has contacted you
Hornady has. They gave me an RMA, but what would be the point in shipping the brass back and getting a credit if there is no source of on-spec brass available?
So it's okay to ignore standards they've committed to via membership in SAAMI because they aren't "official numbers"? SAAMI membership is just an excuse for attending conferences in resort cities?
It's supposedly accurate to +- .001" and it seems highly repeatable. I was demonstrating the measurement method per request, but I had to hold the camera in my other hand so I had to put some pressure on the thumbwheel to keep the case from falling out, but it really wasn't all that much.
That's why I zero the caliper after installing the base.
Probably not, but I want to be doing what I reasonably can to shoot as accurately as possible with a factory rifle. The producers of off-spec brass are making it difficult to discover whether I'm missing out an accuracy that on-spec brass could provide. Agreed?
The average human hair is .004
Why would I worry about exceeding COL? As long as the bullet doesn't fall out of the case or get jammed in the magazine and gets the best accuracy I can give it, I'm okay with exceeding the COL. I'm not a member of SAAMI. Hornady is. I haven't committed to adherence to SAAMI standards. Hornady supposedly has, but only to the extent that they will refund a purchase if you call them out for failing to.
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I bet that is frustrating. New brass shouldn't be that short of minimum like the Hornady. But .012" isn't uncommon. I always considered short brass a blessing but have never seen it so short I couldn't seat a bullet properly. And I do measure my new brass. Before and after sizing, and after each firing. Like you say the Barnes is an even longer bullet for weight and it is too short. Any chance the throat is shot out or cut too long? Cerosafe the chamber and throat. Just looking at the pictures that seems awfully long to function in the magazine in that cartridge. But I don't shoot that round. Still that doesn't get your new brass up to a minimum usable spec.
Is there any chance the anvil base is messing the measurement? Or the knife edge pressing into the neck surface giving a short measurement? I'm just thinking if it were my problem. What does that old brass you chambered for headspace measure? And without the anvil at random measurements?
Maybe speak to someone and get them to measure the next lot of brass before you buy to be sure it isn't also too short. Good luck it sounds frustrating short of rechambering your barrel.
Is there any chance the anvil base is messing the measurement? Or the knife edge pressing into the neck surface giving a short measurement? I'm just thinking if it were my problem. What does that old brass you chambered for headspace measure? And without the anvil at random measurements?
Maybe speak to someone and get them to measure the next lot of brass before you buy to be sure it isn't also too short. Good luck it sounds frustrating short of rechambering your barrel.
It's a new rifle. I'm not even finished with Howa's breakin procedure, so it's definitely not throat erosion. The manufacturers of this caliber typically provide a long leade and a long magazine so that 160 grain hunting rounds can be used for moose hunting in Europe. The best accuracy for the rifle is typically found with handloads with bullet between 120 and 140 grains.
My measurements are very repeatable, so I don't think it's anything wrong with my caliper technique. The old brass measures longer, even after I force the headspace into compliance with the new rifle's shoulder. It's almost all between the trimto length and the max length. I would hate to think that I would get cases superior to Lapua by shooting Remington Core-Lokt through my gun.
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Standards… nothing mandatory. "supposedly" WOW. You expect to exceed the "SAMMI" OAL. What exactly are you trying to accomplish with a factory chambering?
hogpatrol
Gold $$ Contributor
Going to cut through all the haze, FOMH. You bought a rifle for a military round that's been in existence and rifles manufactured for it since 1894. Here's one from 1902.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/740807733
I can guarantee you, the makers of that rifle didn't consult CIP or SAAMI when it was made. The chamber could be who knows what length. Brass made for this round has to fit rifles that were around for over 100 years. If you have the blueprints and the ACTUAL historic specifications for this round FROM THE FACTORY and not some internet mumbo jumbo, then you can say for certain your brass is defective. Brass manufacturers MUST, if they want to be off the hook for liability make brass to fit every 6.5 Swede known to mankind and built since 1894. If that brass is just .005 too long and constricts the bullet in the throat/lead, chamber pressures can be exceeded and in an old rifle be catastrophic. I suggest you purchase another rifle with a cartridge that is POST-SAAMI. Then and only then will you have a complaint about short brass.
Speech is over. Get a mentor. You, sir, are chasing rainbows.
Edit: You ARE wasting your time looking for SAAMI or CIP spec brass for ANY military cartridge made before SAAMI or CIP.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/740807733
I can guarantee you, the makers of that rifle didn't consult CIP or SAAMI when it was made. The chamber could be who knows what length. Brass made for this round has to fit rifles that were around for over 100 years. If you have the blueprints and the ACTUAL historic specifications for this round FROM THE FACTORY and not some internet mumbo jumbo, then you can say for certain your brass is defective. Brass manufacturers MUST, if they want to be off the hook for liability make brass to fit every 6.5 Swede known to mankind and built since 1894. If that brass is just .005 too long and constricts the bullet in the throat/lead, chamber pressures can be exceeded and in an old rifle be catastrophic. I suggest you purchase another rifle with a cartridge that is POST-SAAMI. Then and only then will you have a complaint about short brass.
Speech is over. Get a mentor. You, sir, are chasing rainbows.
Edit: You ARE wasting your time looking for SAAMI or CIP spec brass for ANY military cartridge made before SAAMI or CIP.
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"Isn't it SOP to measure virgin brass before and after the first FLS? And isn't it reasonable to expect it to be on-spec?"
JRS: No answer for either question.
"They gave me an RMA, but what would be the point in shipping the brass back and getting a credit if there is no source of on-spec brass available?"
JRS: No answer.
"So it's okay to ignore standards they've committed to via membership in SAAMI because they aren't "official numbers"? SAAMI membership is just an excuse for attending conferences in resort cities?"
JRS: No answer for either question.
"The producers of off-spec brass are making it difficult to discover whether I'm missing out an accuracy that on-spec brass could provide. Agreed?"
JRS: No answer.
"Why would I worry about exceeding COL?"
JRS: No answer.
Get whatever accuracy I can out of the rifle when I optimize the variables I can reasonably control. See how easy it is to answer questions?
JRS: No answer for either question.
"They gave me an RMA, but what would be the point in shipping the brass back and getting a credit if there is no source of on-spec brass available?"
JRS: No answer.
"So it's okay to ignore standards they've committed to via membership in SAAMI because they aren't "official numbers"? SAAMI membership is just an excuse for attending conferences in resort cities?"
JRS: No answer for either question.
"The producers of off-spec brass are making it difficult to discover whether I'm missing out an accuracy that on-spec brass could provide. Agreed?"
JRS: No answer.
"Why would I worry about exceeding COL?"
JRS: No answer.
Get whatever accuracy I can out of the rifle when I optimize the variables I can reasonably control. See how easy it is to answer questions?
55mm is 55mm. Correct? It was 55mm back in 1894. Correct?
Yes it is, in my experience. Get used to it. Use the short brass for fowlers. dedogs
I got my answer and some other info from this thread. 1) Sub-standard brass is to be expected. 2) Manufacturers foist their off-spec brass at premium prices onto reloaders who probably think that's normal but who wouldn't let manufacturers get away with selling off-spec products in other areas of their life. 3) Some people offer advice about something other than how to get on-spec brass when you're hoping for advice on how to get on-spec brass. 4) Some people are afraid to answer questions.
Thanks. Is this just a reloader brass thing or is it also true with brass from manufactured ammo?
hogpatrol
Gold $$ Contributor
Please re-read my post. You aren't comprehending what I said. Do you actually believe that a rifle made in 1894 and the brass made for it then was made to SAAMI or CIP specs? Do you have those tolerances from back then? Do you have those blueprints? How do you know their tolerances weren't minus .060 or minus .050 on the brass, reamer or chamber? You don't. You are going with modern specs for rifles built post SAAMI. I repeat: You have an old military round with rifles built for it over the last 124 years with chambers all over the place. Advise you completely forget about SAAMI specs and accept the fact you are shooting a 124 year old cartridge and trying to make it fit a SAAMI spec rifle. Ain't going to work unless you want to have your barrel set back. On top of that you are trying to get custom rifle results out of a factory rifle. The selection of a Barnes bullet looking for accuracy is a non starter. That too will never happen with this or any other cartridge. Just realize you have an old round in a new rifle. Again, you are chasing rainbows. Get a mentor.
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I really can't answer that question. I don't think I have fired any factory ammunition in the last 35 or 40 years. Can't remember. dedogs
You need to check your attitude at the door if you expect to continue getting help/advice on this forum. Several times I almost walked away from some of your responses. dedogs
The C.I.P. spec for the 6,5X55 SE and the SAAMI spec for the 6.5X55 Swedish were based on the United Kingdom of Sweden and Norway's joint military specs. The cartridge design came first. The chambers for those military rifles were designed to meet the cartridge spec. The 55mm was the case length, not the chamber length. And it was not 54.102mm (2.130").
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hogpatrol
Gold $$ Contributor
What are the actual chamber dimensions of ALL rifles made in that caliber since 1894? No one can possibly know that number. How about you manufacture the brass for all of those 124 year old rifles and then try and get liability insurance? Would you make it long (dangerous) or short?
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