Short necked virgin brass. Is this to be expected?

['Freak]

During the last five or so years I’ve bought some Hornady brass and more Nosler, some loaded and more new boxed brass ~ already prepped. Thinkin’ all I’ve measured so far has been a bit short of SAAMI trim to length.

 

[FatOldMIHunter]

During the last five or so years I’ve bought some Hornady brass and more Nosler, some loaded and more new boxed brass ~ already prepped. Thinkin’ all I’ve measured so far has been a bit short of SAAMI trim to length.

Interesting. I don't suppose it was 6.5X55 Swedish Mauser? The SAAMI case length spec is 2.165" - .020" and the trim to length is 2.155". These cases are down around 2.130".

 

[shortthroat]

In 7 RSAUM the Remington brass is SAAMI length. Both Nosler and Norma are short by .020. Remington is too soft and primer pockets tend to blow out. Nosler and Norma hold up quite well. Note that because 7 RSAUM brass is usually more costly and harder to find, most shooters buy .300 RSAUM and resize to 7 mm. .308 resizes easily to .284 (7 mm). That means I shoot almost all "short" brass. It does not grow in length because I size with RCBS X-die.

 

['Freak]

Interesting. I don't suppose it was 6.5X55 Swedish Mauser? The SAAMI case length spec is 2.165" - .020" and the trim to length is 2.155". These cases are down around 2.130".

Nope. All of 'em USA designed and SAAMI blessed. Wonder if something’s along the way done gone amiss in all the old Swedish/pre-C.I.P. days to modern day C.I.P. to USA/modern day SAAMI translations ...?

 

[243winxb]

There is a lot of taper to the 6.5 case body, when compared to the 30-06 and others. After firing and full length sizing, the case may grow in length more the others?? May need a near maximum loading? A guess. Like said before, time to start shooting/fire forming and stop measuring.

Interesting history, below.

and then the SKAN
http://stevespages.com/page8d.htm

 

[wholman]

If you want this chamber to fit new brass you are going to need a gun smith.
Or your going to have to fire form the brass to fit.

 

[FatOldMIHunter]

If you want this chamber to fit new brass you are going to need a gun smith.
Or your going to have to fire form the brass to fit.

What do I do if I want new brass to conform to SAAMI standards?

 

[JRS]

What do I do if I want new brass to conform to SAAMI standards?

Relax. The cases will grow after firing and resizing a couple of times.

 

[Hanbleceya]

Are you telling me that steel can somehow be added back so the throat can be shortened? Because the problem with the throat is that the available bullets are too short to get near the lands. And the problem with the brass is that it is too short. Didn't I make that clear?

Are you telling me that steel can somehow be added back so the throat can be shortened? Because the problem with the throat is that the available bullets are too short to get near the lands. And the problem with the brass is that it is too short. Didn't I make that clear?

No I'm not. I am saying that these companies make their brass below specs. Hence, to get a definitive answer, speak with a gunsmith that has a reamer for your cartridge and see if it is possible to recut the throat to fit. As I recall, my smith told me that you would have to have a reamer made so you can get where you want to be.

The question is what to do when the Manufacturers Initial Length falls significantly below SAAMI minimum? This has happened with both Hornady and Lapua. In the case of the Hornady, full length resizing did not increase the length. Case length can affect the seating depth, so I would think that it's an important issue, but nobody is addressing it.

The question is what to do when the Manufacturers Initial Length falls significantly below SAAMI minimum? This has happened with both Hornady and Lapua. In the case of the Hornady, full length resizing did not increase the length. Case length can affect the seating depth, so I would think that it's an important issue, but nobody is addressing it.

Succinctly: All brass will be too short for your purposes, at the present time. All you can do is try to work around that unfortunate fact. Ideally, you would have a reamer maker cut one to your specifications. That is your answer. The following addresses ways to do that.

In that I do not know your level of knowledge regarding reloading, I may have related information that you already possess. It is not my intention to demean in any way.

Each respondent is addressing different aspects. Please allow me to try my best to bring this all together:

Using brass that has already been fire-formed in someone elses rifle puts you off to a bad start, especially assorted range brass, for obvious reasons.

You went to new brass to resolve, which is a good start. However they all make their brass too short, disallowing one to tailor to their needs. This relates to one of your respondents who mentions SAAMI, which is true but not as clear as you need it to be. Nothing can be done about that. SAAMI specs are compiled in such a way that, if followed, everyone's cartridge will fit in any rifle in their international database. Since SAAMI is first about safety, one can understand why they do this. Every reamer maker follows these specs, due to liability and safety issues, unless you have a custom reamer made. That is the reason that reloaders sometimes have a reamer maker, i.e. PT&G

http://pacifictoolandgauge.com/
https://mansonreamers.com/
http://jgstools.com/
http://www.clymertool.com/

make a reamer to their own specs. If a gunsmith does this, they pass on the cost (~$170+ custom cutting cost) to the customer. Others determine their spec needs, have the reamer cut, take to a smith and have them cut/recut the throat. One can keep the reamer afterwards, should they want to recut the chamber after erosion occurs or if they plan on a new build with the same specs. Alternately, you might be able to find a smith that already has done this for another customer with the same tailoring needs. Google it starting in your geographical area and/or look through gunsmithing in the forum section.

FYI, as an option, some customers can reduce their bill from the smith by offering to allow them to keep the reamer, should it be one they are likely to use in the future. Don't get frustrated: This may be your only option so I mention it here, now. Caveat: custom reamers result in cartridges for your rifle only.

Once you fire form in YOUR rifle (not to be fired in any other rifle), growth in the neck will not continue. Further, full length sizing can actually exacerbate the problem by further shortening the neck measurement. In bumping the shoulder, it moves the neck further back. Given that all cases are manufactured too short for your purpose, one must do all they can to keep the cases from shortening any further, should you decide not to have a custom reamer made. It is not unusual not to have to trim the necks until after multiple firings, if ever in some cases. With standard chambers and standard brass, you will likely never get to where you say you want to be. I understand what you are saying about bullet length and how you cannot reach the landings.

My personally chosen course of action:

Fire form in the chamber that you will be using; resize with the die screwed upward from owner manual instructions so that you do not bump the shoulder. RCBS says to turn the die in one eighth to one quarter turn and adjust until you feel firm cam over. Do not do this. Back off die so that when you run the ram against the die, the shell holder just touches or just falls short of the shellholder and tighten. You do not want cam-over now. Run a case through. Cam over means it is pushing (bumping) the shoulder back. Try the cartridge by closing the bolt on it. You want Zero tension because that would mean it is compressing the case. If it won't close easily, screw die in a little, put through die, try cartridge, closing bolt on it. Continue to do this until you get to the point where you feel no tension on the bolt. (It is best to remove the extractor first so it does not affect the feel.-there are other ways to do this, this is ONE)

Now record your measurements. Seat a bullet in an empty case until at least one bullet diameter lies within the neck. Measure with calipers and one of the bullet comparators found below:

https://www.sinclairintl.com/reload...r-hex-style-bullet-comparators-prod83792.aspx

http://pacifictoolandgauge.com/reloading-tools/945-bullet-comparator-17-20-22-27-30-33-calibers.html

These nuts vary across manufacturers, as far as what caliber assortment they include. If you possess more than one nut, be sure and use the exact same nut throughout. They are neither precise, nor consistent across brands, as one would assume.

Record these measurements. These are, of course, the specs you will need in order to have a custom reamer made. Preferably, one should have your gunsmith take the measurements and order the reamer to avoid issues such as different measurements from different gauges, communication with reamer makers, etc. Should you do this, ask the gunsmith or reamer maker what they need from you, such as the bullet you will be using, fireformed catridge cases, etc. Caveat: do ask your gunsmith about headspacing, full communicating what you want for results regarding your bullet selection.

To sum up: To accommodate the fact that brass is, and will be until SAAMI changes the specs, too short for your needs, all you can do is modify the throat/chamber. Once a barrel is shot out, which usually occurs through throat erosion first, one can have a gunsmith cut ~1" off the barrel and run in a custom reamer or one of another with the same case dimensions or larger cartridge but with the same bore size- but will still fit your needs as far as the bullet you will be using. This removes eroded throat, heat checking, etc. but shortens the barrel. In doing this, you will hopefully extend the life of the barrel, to various degrees. When I order a barrel, I buy them long, to allow me to set back once I get throat erosion. This necessitates doing load work to accommodate ballistics that will change with the change in barrel length. Caveat: If your rifle has a lot of rounds through it already, rethroating is advisable at this time. Depending upon barrel, pressures used, over heating, etc., this could be from 700-5000 rounds. It would be the perfect time to rethroat anyway. Two birds, one stone.

As it relates to your present needs: running a custom reamer into your present chamber will require the heretofore mentioned cutting off of some of the barrel, in order to reach/exceed your present dimensions. I do not see an alternative for you, given your choice of bullet and the likely absence of an alternate bullet that would be of sufficient length.

My advice is to select a bullet, stay with it, and stock up. But do think this through and talk to a gunsmith first before applying any of the above information.

RE: "...adding metal back"- No, rethroating with custom reamer. Sorry you received piecemeal answers. I apologize for my vagueness and lack of clarity. I will be more mindful of that.

It is my sincere hope that you successfully arrive at your goal FatOldMIHunter.

I am not a gunsmith; I make no claims that any of the information presented here is accurate. Rather, the information is given as a foundation for discussions with a qualified gunsmith.

 

[243winxb]

This 6.5x55 may allow neck sizing in a full length die, because of the large amount of case body taper.

Size fired brass with a .010" gap between shell holder and bottom of the FL die. See if it will chamber. Make additional adjustment if needed.

 

[FatOldMIHunter]

No I'm not. I am saying that these companies make their brass below specs. Hence, to get a definitive answer, speak with a gunsmith that has a reamer for your cartridge and see if it is possible to recut the throat to fit. As I recall, my smith told me that you would have to have a reamer made so you can get where you want to be.





Succinctly: All brass will be too short for your purposes, at the present time. All you can do is try to work around that unfortunate fact. Ideally, you would have a reamer maker cut one to your specifications. That is your answer. The following addresses ways to do that.

In that I do not know your level of knowledge regarding reloading, I may have related information that you already possess. It is not my intention to demean in any way.

Each respondent is addressing different aspects. Please allow me to try my best to bring this all together:

Using brass that has already been fire-formed in someone elses rifle puts you off to a bad start, especially assorted range brass, for obvious reasons.

You went to new brass to resolve, which is a good start. However they all make their brass too short, disallowing one to tailor to their needs. This relates to one of your respondents who mentions SAAMI, which is true but not as clear as you need it to be. Nothing can be done about that. SAAMI specs are compiled in such a way that, if followed, everyone's cartridge will fit in any rifle in their international database. Since SAAMI is first about safety, one can understand why they do this. Every reamer maker follows these specs, due to liability and safety issues, unless you have a custom reamer made. That is the reason that reloaders sometimes have a reamer maker, i.e. PT&G

http://pacifictoolandgauge.com/
https://mansonreamers.com/
http://jgstools.com/
http://www.clymertool.com/

make a reamer to their own specs. If a gunsmith does this, they pass on the cost (~$170+ custom cutting cost) to the customer. Others determine their spec needs, have the reamer cut, take to a smith and have them cut/recut the throat. One can keep the reamer afterwards, should they want to recut the chamber after erosion occurs or if they plan on a new build with the same specs. Alternately, you might be able to find a smith that already has done this for another customer with the same tailoring needs. Google it starting in your geographical area and/or look through gunsmithing in the forum section.

FYI, as an option, some customers can reduce their bill from the smith by offering to allow them to keep the reamer, should it be one they are likely to use in the future. Don't get frustrated: This may be your only option so I mention it here, now. Caveat: custom reamers result in cartridges for your rifle only.

Once you fire form in YOUR rifle (not to be fired in any other rifle), growth in the neck will not continue. Further, full length sizing can actually exacerbate the problem by further shortening the neck measurement. In bumping the shoulder, it moves the neck further back. Given that all cases are manufactured too short for your purpose, one must do all they can to keep the cases from shortening any further, should you decide not to have a custom reamer made. It is not unusual not to have to trim the necks until after multiple firings, if ever in some cases. With standard chambers and standard brass, you will likely never get to where you say you want to be. I understand what you are saying about bullet length and how you cannot reach the landings.

My personally chosen course of action:

Fire form in the chamber that you will be using; resize with the die screwed upward from owner manual instructions so that you do not bump the shoulder. RCBS says to turn the die in one eighth to one quarter turn and adjust until you feel firm cam over. Do not do this. Back off die so that when you run the ram against the die, the shell holder just touches or just falls short of the shellholder and tighten. You do not want cam-over now. Run a case through. Cam over means it is pushing (bumping) the shoulder back. Try the cartridge by closing the bolt on it. You want Zero tension because that would mean it is compressing the case. If it won't close easily, screw die in a little, put through die, try cartridge, closing bolt on it. Continue to do this until you get to the point where you feel no tension on the bolt. (It is best to remove the extractor first so it does not affect the feel.-there are other ways to do this, this is ONE)

Now record your measurements. Seat a bullet in an empty case until at least one bullet diameter lies within the neck. Measure with calipers and one of the bullet comparators found below:

https://www.sinclairintl.com/reload...r-hex-style-bullet-comparators-prod83792.aspx

http://pacifictoolandgauge.com/reloading-tools/945-bullet-comparator-17-20-22-27-30-33-calibers.html

These nuts vary across manufacturers, as far as what caliber assortment they include. If you possess more than one nut, be sure and use the exact same nut throughout. They are neither precise, nor consistent across brands, as one would assume.

Record these measurements. These are, of course, the specs you will need in order to have a custom reamer made. Preferably, one should have your gunsmith take the measurements and order the reamer to avoid issues such as different measurements from different gauges, communication with reamer makers, etc. Should you do this, ask the gunsmith or reamer maker what they need from you, such as the bullet you will be using, fireformed catridge cases, etc. Caveat: do ask your gunsmith about headspacing, full communicating what you want for results regarding your bullet selection.

To sum up: To accommodate the fact that brass is, and will be until SAAMI changes the specs, too short for your needs, all you can do is modify the throat/chamber. Once a barrel is shot out, which usually occurs through throat erosion first, one can have a gunsmith cut ~1" off the barrel and run in a custom reamer or one of another with the same case dimensions or larger cartridge but with the same bore size- but will still fit your needs as far as the bullet you will be using. This removes eroded throat, heat checking, etc. but shortens the barrel. In doing this, you will hopefully extend the life of the barrel, to various degrees. When I order a barrel, I buy them long, to allow me to set back once I get throat erosion. This necessitates doing load work to accommodate ballistics that will change with the change in barrel length. Caveat: If your rifle has a lot of rounds through it already, rethroating is advisable at this time. Depending upon barrel, pressures used, over heating, etc., this could be from 700-5000 rounds. It would be the perfect time to rethroat anyway. Two birds, one stone.

As it relates to your present needs: running a custom reamer into your present chamber will require the heretofore mentioned cutting off of some of the barrel, in order to reach/exceed your present dimensions. I do not see an alternative for you, given your choice of bullet and the likely absence of an alternate bullet that would be of sufficient length.

My advice is to select a bullet, stay with it, and stock up. But do think this through and talk to a gunsmith first before applying any of the above information.

RE: "...adding metal back"- No, rethroating with custom reamer. Sorry you received piecemeal answers. I apologize for my vagueness and lack of clarity. I will be more mindful of that.

It is my sincere hope that you successfully arrive at your goal FatOldMIHunter.

I am not a gunsmith; I make no claims that any of the information presented here is accurate. Rather, the information is given as a foundation for discussions with a qualified gunsmith.

I promise that I will reread and carefully consider all of what you have written later, but I just can't see how reaming the chamber/barrel can possibly help because too much steel has already been removed from the chamber to make it conform to new brass. IOW, the chamber would have to be magically shrunk before it could be reamed out to conform to undersized brass. Either that, or the barrel would have to be threaded into the receiver further to get the throat, shoulder and neck closer to the bolt and that would most certainly require cutting some of the chamber end off the barrel. Is that what you're suggesting I have a gunsmith do? Because that sounds like an insane solution to an undersized brass problem.

 

[FatOldMIHunter]

Relax. The cases will grow after firing and resizing a couple of times.

Where in the SAAMI specs does it say that case makers can make cases below the minimum case specs as long as they reach the minimum within X number of firings? What is the point of having a minimum case spec if the case manufacturer is just going to ignore it? Something tells me that these Hornady cases will not grow .035" during their useful life, possibly not even .025" (the trim to length) and possibly not even .015" (the SAAMI minimum that is presumably set for some logical reason that you want me to ignore).

 

[FatOldMIHunter]

This 6.5x55 may allow neck sizing in a full length die, because of the large amount of case body taper.

Size fired brass with a .010" gap between shell holder and bottom of the FL die. See if it will chamber. Make additional adjustment if needed.

This may actually be good advice and for that I thank you. By doing this I might be able to force the brass to grow at its maximum rate and possibly meet the minimum SAAMI standard during its useful life.

 

[Ringostar]

Interesting. I don't suppose it was 6.5X55 Swedish Mauser? The SAAMI case length spec is 2.165" - .020" and the trim to length is 2.155". These cases are down around 2.130".

I know that 55mm comes to 2.165. Are you saying that sammi spec is 2.165 max and 2.145 min? That could explain the factory case length being shorter. They could be sized to clear in a minimum chamber. I know that sammi case dimensions can be different than sammi chamber dimensions. However you have a European built rifle that doesn't necessarily follow sammi. If you search about determining your actual chamber neck length. There are pics explaining a way to measure your own. Taking one of your old cases that are a snug fit in your chamber. Cut the neck off part way down. Load a bullet and then slide the remaining piece of neck onto the bullet leaving space. Chamber the round so the small piece of neck contacts the end of your chamber neck. You can then measure base to actual length of your chamber.

 

[spife7980]

Just as an aside: one way to measure your actual chamber length and get yourself a concrete point to work from instead of these conservative saami specs, see what youre actually working with.

https://www.sinclairintl.com/reload...s/sinclair-chamber-length-gage-prod32925.aspx

 

[Hanbleceya]

I promise that I will reread and carefully consider all of what you have written later, but I just can't see how reaming the chamber/barrel can possibly help because too much steel has already been removed from the chamber to make it conform to new brass. IOW, the chamber would have to be magically shrunk before it could be reamed out to conform to undersized brass. Either that, or the barrel would have to be threaded into the receiver further to get the throat, shoulder and neck closer to the bolt and that would most certainly require cutting some of the chamber end off the barrel. Is that what you're suggesting I have a gunsmith do? Because that sounds like an insane solution to an undersized brass problem.

What do I do if I want new brass to conform to SAAMI standards?

I promise that I will reread and carefully consider all of what you have written later, but I just can't see how reaming the chamber/barrel can possibly help because too much steel has already been removed from the chamber to make it conform to new brass. IOW, the chamber would have to be magically shrunk before it could be reamed out to conform to undersized brass. Either that, or the barrel would have to be threaded into the receiver further to get the throat, shoulder and neck closer to the bolt and that would most certainly require cutting some of the chamber end off the barrel. Is that what you're suggesting I have a gunsmith do? Because that sounds like an insane solution to an undersized brass problem.

I promise that I will reread and carefully consider all of what you have written later, but I just can't see how reaming the chamber/barrel can possibly help because too much steel has already been removed from the chamber to make it conform to new brass. IOW, the chamber would have to be magically shrunk before it could be reamed out to conform to undersized brass. Either that, or the barrel would have to be threaded into the receiver further to get the throat, shoulder and neck closer to the bolt and that would most certainly require cutting some of the chamber end off the barrel. Is that what you're suggesting I have a gunsmith do? Because that sounds like an insane solution to an undersized brass problem.

You have received multiple replies from people trying to help. One of the respondents stated you will need a gunsmith. Kudos to them. This person measures his words. I respect that very much. Conversely, I expounded profusely as a reaction to your expressed frustration. I have been through exactly what you have delineated on this thread, although with other calibers.

It would serve you well to print out what I have written, take it to a qualified gunsmith, have them assess the information, and make any future comments and questions based upon an informed position, and to people other than me. In my opinion, you should have started at a gunsmith. If any of the information proves to be incorrect, just remember what you paid for it.

If you want to address headspacing, there are also less invasive ways to change it by switching to a different thickness of barrel lug. There are actually case stretchers out there that draw the brass forward and thin the metal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJQVNTvj5Lw

I would not sit next to someone at the range that does this, but that is likely what you are going to have to do in order to satisfy your desire to meet SAAMI specs, vs. rechambering and obtaining safe and optimal dimensions that, while not in adherence with SAAMI, will produce a safe chamber with high accuracy potential that will exactly fit your bullet of choice.

Whatever direction you choose to go, do refrain from insulting this respondent, or any other member.

 

[JRS]

So if the neck was only 1/16", you would shoot it?

 

[FatOldMIHunter]

I know that 55mm comes to 2.165. Are you saying that sammi spec is 2.165 max and 2.145 min? That could explain the factory case length being shorter. They could be sized to clear in a minimum chamber. I know that sammi case dimensions can be different than sammi chamber dimensions. However you have a European built rifle that doesn't necessarily follow sammi. If you search about determining your actual chamber neck length. There are pics explaining a way to measure your own. Taking one of your old cases that are a snug fit in your chamber. Cut the neck off part way down. Load a bullet and then slide the remaining piece of neck onto the bullet leaving space. Chamber the round so the small piece of neck contacts the end of your chamber neck. You can then measure base to actual length of your chamber.

Both SAAMI and C.I.P. have specs for both case and chamber. The chamber specs are minimum with some of the numbers having a maximum tolerance. The case specs are maximum with some of the numbers having a minimum tolerance. The case specs for L3 (the case length) of 6.5X55 Swedish Mauser, are 2.165" (55mm) with an allowable deviation of -.020". These Hornady cases have a deviation of -.035", which is .015" below minimum. There is no "minimum chamber" smaller than 55mm. The chamber minimum spec for L3 (the corresponding space in the chamber) is 2.1693 (55.10). Anything less would be lawsuit material due to the danger it presents. These numbers are also the C.I.P. specs for 6.5X55 SE, which means that no matter which my Japanese manufactured rifle barrel was designed to, the result would be the same.

Thanks for the method for determining the chamber L3, but I'm not presently worried about that because I can't find any effen brass that gets anywhere near.

 

[FatOldMIHunter]

You have received multiple replies from people trying to help. One of the respondents stated you will need a gunsmith. Kudos to them. This person measures his words. I respect that very much. Conversely, I expounded profusely as a reaction to your expressed frustration. I have been through exactly what you have delineated on this thread, although with other calibers.

It would serve you well to print out what I have written, take it to a qualified gunsmith, have them assess the information, and make any future comments and questions based upon an informed position, and to people other than me. In my opinion, you should have started at a gunsmith. If any of the information proves to be incorrect, just remember what you paid for it.

If you want to address headspacing, there are also less invasive ways to change it by switching to a different thickness of barrel lug. There are actually case stretchers out there that draw the brass forward and thin the metal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJQVNTvj5Lw

I would not sit next to someone at the range that does this, but that is likely what you are going to have to do in order to satisfy your desire to meet SAAMI specs, vs. rechambering and obtaining safe and optimal dimensions that, while not in adherence with SAAMI, will produce a safe chamber with high accuracy potential that will exactly fit your bullet of choice.

Whatever direction you choose to go, do refrain from insulting this respondent, or any other member.

So your recommendation to anyone who is plagued by off-spec brass is to take their gun to a gunsmith?

It's much easier to just 1-star the brass at the supplier's website. I don't want to modify my gun so that it won't chamber on-spec brass.

 

[FatOldMIHunter]

View attachment 1033705 View attachment 1033706

Is there a reason you avoid answering questions?