Please explain my mistake...

[BoydAllen]

Since there is only one person that seems to be having a problem with the commonly used terminology, and he is not reporting any problems that come from his procedures, perhaps we could just ignore the issue other than posting to save those that might be reading a thread and not know the history of the discussion from being led astray.

 

[ShootDots]

Yep, just like I said...a word game. Here's how we can play this word game and maybe all agree:

Let's say that the shoulder was "re-located" will that square it???? We didn't move it we re-located it. Maybe even better, we could say it was "re-formed"....yeah, will that word play do it??? We ironed it out and re-formed it, .002" back from where it still is. Word it up however, we put it in a press and did whatever you want to call it to "locate" it where it is now needed.
Good god almighty dude.....I now understand why most guys on here treat you the way they do!!!!! In my wildest whacked out LSD, cocaine, and heroin trip {all at the same time} I could not bring myself to be this godforsaken trifling!!!!! and yet you have maintained this ridiculousness for literally years.

There is no sense trying to reason with Mr. Guffey, you will only get frustrated. Like President Trump said to Sec. of State Tillerson, "it is a waste of time trying to negotiate with Little Rocket Man"! By the same token it is a waste of time trying to reason with Mr. Guffey. Sooner or later, if everyone would finally ignore him, he will evaporate like water boiling away on the stove! The sooner the better!

 

[Comrade Terry]

There is no sense trying to reason with Mr. Guffey, you will only get frustrated. Like President Trump said to Sec. of State Tillerson, "it is a waste of time trying to negotiate with Little Rocket Man"! By the same token it is a waste of time trying to reason with Mr. Guffey. Sooner or later, if everyone would finally ignore him, he will evaporate like water boiling away on the stove! The sooner the better!

Short version: Don't feed the troll.

He is a troll. He successfully derails every thread in which he participates.

 

[msinc]

Short version: Don't feed the troll.

He is a troll. He successfully derails every thread in which he participates.

I get it, and he's not the only one...this same ridiculousness always affects just about every conversation regarding scopes and their "handling" of light. Word games...someone mentions a scope "gathering" or "enhancing" light. Without exception, every normal middle of the line and probably some of much lesser intelligence level people out there knows immediately what the guy is talking about. Look at the animal with your naked eye at extreme dusk, you can barely see it, now look thru the scope, not only can I see it, but I see it better. Enough so that I can shoot it...and within seconds some trifling idiot that wants every one to think he's a genius jumps all over the guy and proceeds to educate him on the word games regarding optics. We have all heard the B.S. "scopes do not enhance light" scopes cannot gather light" yadda, yadda, yadda.
It would be nice if these geniuses realized that:

A. When everyone already understands what the guy is saying you do not sound like a genius because you contradicted with trifle.

B. When what you are trifling over with word play has nothing to do with the end point ....you still do not sound like a genius and aren't about to.
C. Do it often enough and you are regarded as a real honest to god jack ass.

 

[ShootDots]

I get it, and he's not the only one...this same ridiculousness always affects just about every conversation regarding scopes and their "handling" of light. Word games...someone mentions a scope "gathering" or "enhancing" light. Without exception, every normal middle of the line and probably some of much lesser intelligence level people out there knows immediately what the guy is talking about. Look at the animal with your naked eye at extreme dusk, you can barely see it, now look thru the scope, not only can I see it, but I see it better. Enough so that I can shoot it...and within seconds some trifling idiot that wants every one to think he's a genius jumps all over the guy and proceeds to educate him on the word games regarding optics. We have all heard the B.S. "scopes do not enhance light" scopes cannot gather light" yadda, yadda, yadda.
It would be nice if these geniuses realized that:

A. When everyone already understands what the guy is saying you do not sound like a genius because you contradicted with trifle.

B. When what you are trifling over with word play has nothing to do with the end point ....you still do not sound like a genius and aren't about to.
C. Do it often enough and you are regarded as a real honest to god jack ass.

There was a thread where the semantics were being argued over. I stated then and I state now, we shooters have an esoteric language we use and MOST of us understand. Those who either do not know or simply want to argue or "stir-the-pot" for some selfish "satisfaction", cause a lot of consternation amongst the shooting public. That is one thing. The other side of this coin is that they can be dangerous due to the possibility of causing a newbie to misconstrue something, creating a dangerous situation.. Therein lies the REAL problem..

 

[jerseyjoe]

Personally, I find Mr. Guffey's posts quite entertaining.

It amazes me the time and effort he expends posting the same trite, condesending, histrionic responses.

I am sure he has some knowledge to share, but the Luddite in him prevents him from accepting that things change (for the better) over time.

Technology, terminology, and the English language all change with time, much to some people's chagrin.

Or, The Firing Line just got sick of his shit and gave him the boot

 

[LHSmith]

And I ask: If the datum for the 25/06, 270W. 280 Remington, 30/06 and 8mm57 is the same diameter how can it be half way between the neck shoulder juncture and shoulder/case body juncture on all of the cases. I am the one that does not assume, I am the only one that can use any datum when using a comparator. And then there are standards and transfers, if you understood what a standard is and if you knew how to use it as a transfer we would not be having this conversation.

In the beginning reloaders thought the datum was a line with an arrow pointing toward it, the line was identified as the datum line, it took me years to convince them the datum was a circle/round hole. And when explaining datum on the Internet reloaders always finished with "and that is how they do it", most of them acted like they just scorned the day they ever learned to read because they still could not understand the concept of the round hole.

And they got madder when I told them I had gages, I informed them I took a picture of my gages and the picture weighted 800 pounds, that was when I knew most of them had problems because none of them smiled.

F. Guffey

 

[spife7980]

Thank you for asking: Will you please tell me how you bump the shoulder back

Easy, you screw the die further in. Which you know. It just wouldnt offer you the opportunity to piss the entire world off with your senile diatribes against common sense.

 

[chop house]

In the beginning reloaders thought the datum was a line with an arrow pointing toward it, the line was identified as the datum line, it took me years to convince them the datum was a circle/round hole.

i take it you are refering to the projection of a three dimensional object on a plane surface...?

Again, when firing a case reloaders believe the shoulder moves forward and I say there must be something reloaders do not understand etc. etc

not particularly so. I think most reloaders believe the entire case moves forward, and then as a result of firing the case head moves backward. Therefore neither the shoulder nor the datum line (whether round or plane, your choice of reference) moves.

and while i seem to find myself here, what about the case - excuse me, 'instance' - wherein the chamber in the shoulder area and therefore the case fireformed in that same chamber are not perfectly round but somewhat oblong. will not your perfectly round comparator gauge yield a consistent reading, when in reality the cartridge will move in and out of the chamber depending on case orientation?

(just don't ponder too deeply how a well made closely controlled rotating tool can make an oblong hole)

 

[chop house]

Lots of great advice listed above. And easy way to find out where the problem is, just apply something to the case that will "rub" off with friction. In the old days, I used to smoke the case neck with a candle to set the sizing die. Now days you can use a magic marker and chamber the round. Any rubs will show up quickly and tell you where the issue is. Bluing also works fine for this.

i have some cases that are just starting to drag on closing. using a sharpie and a microscope i found, somewhat to my surprise, that the area of first contact is only 0.030" ahead of the body shoulder junction and is quite narrow, actually. the cases happen to be .243 so datum is 0.400 and a bit farther down the shoulder from where the interference is.

i could never get a mental picture of how the die was shortening the case. is it simply reducing the diameter at that junction and therefore seeming to 'bump' the shoulder?

edit for follow up:

i took this one step further, and inked some cases during body die sizing. in my particular situation, ithe redding die reduced diameter at the body/shoulder junction by about 0.0035" in order to accomplish a datum measurement reduction of between 0.002" and 0.003". the second and only other contact point indicated from the sizing was at the shoulder/neck junction, producing an even, clear ring. so, it seems for my chamber/die combo the case is indeed held at the back of the shoulder and pushed down at the neck. until the indications showed at the neck there was no measurable reduction in datum. i believe i was able to manipulate slightly (~0.001") the 'bump' by the amount of lube and the speed/force on the press handle.

 

[fguffey]

i take it you are refering to the projection of a three dimensional object on a plane surface...?

From the beginning I knew the datum was not a line, I knew the datum was a round hole, I knew one datum diameter was .375" in diameter, it was clear to me the diameter of the hole did not matter if I was using a comparator. And there are case friendly datums and there are datums that are not case friendly, I am the fan of the non friendly datum, I understand in the reloading world there are too many excuses for not being able to do something. If I check a case with an unfriendly datum the case will have a circle around the shoulder, to see the circle when using a case friendly datum I have to use a hammer, or rotate the case like I was attempting to get it hot enough to build a fire. And there is Persian blue, smoke and markers. I can see the datum from the front, side and top, That is how the old wood carver became a land owner, the Duke gave the wood carver half of his Dukedom.

not particularly so. I think most reloaders believe the entire case moves forward, and then as a result of firing the case head moves backward. Therefore neither the shoulder nor the datum line (whether round or plane, your choice of reference) moves.

I have heard that, it goes back to the reloader that claimed the firing pin drives the case forward to the shoulder of the chamber; once the case shoulder contacts the chamber shoulder the primer is busted, he claimed. I suggested there were events that he was omitting etc.. so I disagreed with him. As always, he got all potty mouth/social media (potty finger).

I tried to tell him I had killer firing pins, I explained to him my primers were busted before their little buddies, case, powder and bullet knew the primer was hit. In my opinion failure is designed into the theory the whole case moves forward and then when fired the case head moves back while the shoulder of the case remains against the shoulder of the chamber. BECAUSE the only way that can happens is if the case stretches between the case head and case body. I gave an example: I fired short cases in a long chamber. The chamber was .127" longer from the shoulder to the bolt face than the case from the shoulder to the case head. The firing pin had no trouble catching the primer as it raised for the front of the chamber

I think most reloaders believe the entire case moves forward

. My cases did not stretch .127" between the case head and case body; Proof? had the case stretched between the case head and case body the length of the case neck would not have changed (the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head would have changed). When I ejected the cases there was only a hint of a neck beyond the shoulder. And then there is that argument about the shoulder moving, the shoulder on my case when fired did not move it became part of the case body, when the case formed to the chamber a new shoulder was formed; one more time the case did not stretch between the case head and case body.

Hatcher did the same experiment, years later I had a friend that built 4 magnificent rifles, he made the wildcat reamer and when finished he headed to the range. He had 5 case head seperations out of the first 10 cases he fired, he did not use the same rifle Hatcher used, he did not use the same rifle/receiver I used, I did tell him he could have determined if that would happen before he left the shop and I told him I could have met him at the range and fixed the problem long enough for him to form his cases and I told him I would have formed the cases first and then fired.

F. Guffey

 

[M-61]

fguffey quote "... And there is Persian blue..."

It's PRUSSIAN BLUE.... not Persian.

 

[LHSmith]

fguffey quote "... And there is Persian blue..."

It's PRUSSIAN BLUE.... not Persian.

Thanks M-61. That helps somewhat in deciphering the post. Just couldn't reconcile how this image that popped in my head was used as a reloading tool:

Anyone else have success in uncovering more of Guffy's -the resident Guru of all things reloaded- latest cryptic message?

 

[divingin]

From what I make of it (at least the parts that made any sense to me at all), he's saying that a) cases don't stretch; and b) shoulders don't move because if you blow a shoulder forward, the brass stays in roughly the same position, i.e. a point on the shoulder becomes a point on the case wall, so the shoulder never moved.

The whole firing pin thing lost me though.

 

[chop house]

Anyone else have success in uncovering more

ah, maybe.

1. the metal itself in the brass case doesn't stretch, but does move outward such that the shape of case changes, resulting in an apparent lengthening of the case? (with that new extra length being donated from the neck)

oh, wait. how does one account for thinning of the web, and head separations then?

2. all the energy of his super ultra fast high kinetic energy low mass firing pin is absorbed by deformation and subsequent detonation of the primer, with no residual energy remaining to overcome the inertia of the cartridge's mass and static friction between the case and chamber walls? (and thus not propelling the cartridge forward in it's entirety while still containing massive amounts of stored potential energy?)

dunno, i am not a finite element analysis tool monkey, so couldn't say for sure. but i think i will measure a datum, pop in a primer, check 18 times the case is truly and completely mt, alert the kids, drop the hammer, and see if the datum has or has not moved. any bets it's reduced a thou or so?

 

[chop house]

i have completed my experiment on a sample of one. on my comparator the datum before 'firing' was 1.6223", after firing but before decapping the 'datum' measured 1.6250", but after decapping the 'real' datum measurement was 1.6220. primer backed out 0.003"

so, i demonstrated something that is likely already common knowledge. the primer is driven back out of an empty case upon detonation and the case moves forward from a combination of the firing pin and pressure in the primer pocket? further, you can measure the static headspace of your brass by firing an empty cartridge. in this case, 0.003". PURRRFECT, said the prussian blue

 

[fguffey]

so, i demonstrated something that is likely already common knowledge.

Not so when reloaders seem to live in a world of their own. The reloader that claimed the firing pin drives the case forward until the shoulder hits the shoulder of the chamber would never consider there could be other events he was could be omitting, it was about that time he started taking himself too seriously and claimed the firing pin hit the primer so hared the case shortened .005" between the shoulder to the case head.

I did not do any experiments but a shooter at a range purchased a new rifle with 2 boxes of R-P 30/06 ammo. Out of the first box he had 5 failure to fire rounds, the 5 failure rounds were passed around to every shooter with a 30/06 rifle. there were 4, that means each primer on each round had to have been hit at least 5 times. I told them to call the phone number on the box and let R-P know. Instead the 15 fired and 5 rounds show up here; no box and no phone number for the proud owner of the new rifle. I dug out my gages and started measuring, I was surprised when I compared the fired cases with the failed to fire rounds. I was impressed when I pulled the loaded cases down and measured and weighed everything I removed the crushed primer, I installed the primers back into the came cases they were removed from and then chambered each round in one of my rifles with killer firing pins and busted all 5 primers with no primer protrusion and the cases did not shorten from the shoulder to the case head.

Again, the primers were hit at least 6 times, there was no evidence the case shortened when measured in my home made chamber gages. I was impressed when I compared the 15 fired cases to the failure to fire cases. The fired cases fit my chamber gage with slight thumb pressure. One more time, the chamber gage was my chamber gage, not a chamber gage that was made for the shooter with the new rifle. I could have used a new barrel, I could have used a take-off barrel, I did use a Wilson case gage, again I was impressed with the results.

F. Guffey

 

[LHSmith]

 

[fguffey]

From what I make of it (at least the parts that made any sense to me at all), he's saying that a) cases don't stretch; and b) shoulders don't move because if you blow a shoulder forward, the brass stays in roughly the same position, i.e. a point on the shoulder becomes a point on the case wall, so the shoulder never moved.

I do not know who 'he' is, I said there are many reloaders that do not understand the events between pulling the trigger and the bullet leaving the barrel. Again: I chambered a short case in a long chamber and pulled the trigger. The case had .127" clearance between the shoulder of the case and shoulder of the chamber. After firing the round ejected the case, the case did not stretch between the case head and case body and there was just a hint of a neck.

What is it that you do not understand? The shoulder on my short round did not move, proof? Had the shoulder moved forward the case neck would not have shortened. And then there is; measure before and again after, the case got longer from the shoulder to the case head. The shoulder I took my measurements from was not the same shoulder I started with. The shoulder I started with became part of the case body, is it stretch, is it flow or both and then there is case forming, I pulled the trigger. the case formed to the chamber and you assumed everything moved.

And then there is that assumption the shoulder moves forward, if it does and the case locks to the chamber when the trigger is pulled the case has no choice but to separated between the case head and case body, there is no way a case will stretch .127" between the case head and case body.

.127" difference in length between the case and chamber when measured from the shoulders to the case head and bolt face? I chambered a 8mm57 round in an 8mm/06 chamber.

F. Guffey

 

[spife7980]

I do not know who 'he' is, I said there are many reloaders that do not understand the events between pulling the trigger and the bullet leaving the barrel. Again: I chambered a short case in a long chamber and pulled the trigger. The case had .127" clearance between the shoulder of the case and shoulder of the chamber. After firing the round ejected the case, the case did not stretch between the case head and case body and there was just a hint of a neck.

What is it that you do not understand? The shoulder on my short round did not move, proof? Had the shoulder moved forward the case neck would not have shortened. And then there is; measure before and again after, the case got longer from the shoulder to the case head. The shoulder I took my measurements from was not the same shoulder I started with. The shoulder I started with became part of the case body, is it stretch, is it flow or both and then there is case forming, I pulled the trigger. the case formed to the chamber and you assumed everything moved.

And then there is that assumption the shoulder moves forward, if it does and the case locks to the chamber when the trigger is pulled the case has no choice but to separated between the case head and case body, there is no way a case will stretch .127" between the case head and case body.

.127" difference in length between the case and chamber when measured from the shoulders to the case head and bolt face? I chambered a 8mm57 round in an 8mm/06 chamber.

F. Guffey

We get it. You and everyone else knows exactly whats happening. Only you fail to process english and thus cant seem to comprehend that fact. Either that or you purposely do so to piss people off. In either case you qualify as a troll in my book