I was trying to decrease the case head to datum .0015-.002" as compared to my fired brass. I never would have thought there would be much difference in the hardness of the brass. It was all virgin brass when I shot it- now.. it was all being sent through the same die and press by the same operator. I really thought they should all come out of that FL die very similarly- and any differences I would have blamed on my technique with the calipers. I have tried to measure my chambers with a Sinclair headspace guage and one of my bullets. I've also tried by using a sharpie on my bullet in a fired case with the mouth pinched a bit-- both methods seem inexact to me, and sure enough, I get a good ballpark number, but rarely the same exact measurement twice. Still trying to learn... I appreciate everyone's thoughts
Please explain my mistake...
- Thread starter Jody Simcox
- Start date
I was trying to decrease the case head to datum .0015-.002" as compared to my fired brass. I never would have thought there would be much difference in the hardness of the brass. It was all virgin brass when I shot it- now.. it was all being sent through the same die and press by the same operator. I really thought they should all come out of that FL die very similarly- and any differences I would have blamed on my technique with the calipers. I have tried to measure my chambers with a Sinclair headspace guage and one of my bullets. I've also tried by using a sharpie on my bullet in a fired case with the mouth pinched a bit-- both methods seem inexact to me, and sure enough, I get a good ballpark number, but rarely the same exact measurement twice. Still trying to learn... I appreciate everyone's thoughts
Okay, thanks, wasn't trying to be hard on anyone...I just wasn't sure if I was doing a good job of explaining it. I don't know for sure why some brass is very consistent and another bag or lot is very definitely not...but just like you, I think we have pretty much all seen it at some point. I have had some very consistent brass from "off the wall" communist bloc countries and I have seen Lake City LR not so good. One would hope what they are giving our snipers would be decent stuff, but it has proved to not be the case all the time.
Whenever I get a batch of inconsistent brass I usually anneal it so it is real soft. I mainly hunt, so I am not trying to set some world record group or win a world shoot. Once nice and soft I just use it until it gets the way I want it and go. Many guys toss it and buy another batch, but for me this is a good enough alternative to tossing it and starting over. This will no doubt throw a cardiac arrest on some Lapua worshiping shooters out there, but believe it or not, overall in general, Remington is some pretty decent all around good brass. Best of luck and good shooting.
The Winchester Short Magnum case has been a difficult case to size for most reloaders. It does not take long for the case to develop resistance to sizing, when that happens the reloader must increase the ability of the press to overcome the case's ability to resist sizing. One more time, it is possible to determine if the die made it down to the shell holder when the ram is raised, it is possible to remove the die with the case from most presses without lowering the ram. A reloader that can remove the die with the case without lowering the ram can measure case head protrusion from the die. If the case got sized and the die contacted the shell holder there should be .125" case head protruding from the die but if the case had more resistance than the press could overcome the case would protrude .130" +/-etc. It is just as easy for me to use a feeler gage.
Again, I am the only reloader that is not afraid of loosing his place, I adjust my dies everytime I use them. I understand it is cool but you may have to screw the die down an additional fraction of a turn to increase the presses ability to size the case and or overcome press flex. I do not secure the lock ring to the diem I secure the die to the press with the lock ring.
F. Guffey
AGAIN by your convoluted explainations
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If you will apply the 'lock the rig to the die philosophy' there is a remote chance you can began to understand how difficult it is to 'bump' the shoulder back .002". Almost all stories by reloaders start with all you gotta do is bump the shoulder back .002". I understand it sounds cool but I can not find a reloader that can explain how that is possible. Again, I can not move the shoulder back and I can not bump a case with a non cam over press; that little bit of information comes from RCBS. I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel, I am the fan of controlling clearance.
F. Guffey
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
F Guffey,
If you are manipulating your equipment so that sized cases have a small amount of clearance between their shoulders and the chamber then you are bumping back your case's shoulders (repositioning that shape slightly along the length of cases). For whatever reason, you are the only person that I am aware of that has difficulty with the language commonly used to describe this process.
Boyd Allen
If you are manipulating your equipment so that sized cases have a small amount of clearance between their shoulders and the chamber then you are bumping back your case's shoulders (repositioning that shape slightly along the length of cases). For whatever reason, you are the only person that I am aware of that has difficulty with the language commonly used to describe this process.
Boyd Allen
Cam-over spam-over........ I and thousands of other reloaders can reduce the case head to shoulder datum distance (aka "bump") on any style press built for reloading using the appropriate FL sizing die. It has been explained to you ad infinitum on this forum yet you fail to grasp the concept. FWIW, many reloading manuals - especially the dated ones contain info that is outdated and the info counter to what works in the real world today. Those "cool" "rat turd in the violin case" "I am a fan of", "then there is" quotes do nothing but confuse everyone. Say what you mean in concise English so we can better understand what you are trying to say.
I am very clear on what you are trying to say but, NO SIR....you absolutely, beyond a shadow of any kind of a slight sliver of a little bit of a doubt ARE NOT the only one that adjust his dies EVERY time. I have to ask, did you not read any of my posts?????
PMA Micro Die Adjuster
http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloadi...mp-upgrades/micro-die-adjuster-prod77619.aspx
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http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloadi...mp-upgrades/micro-die-adjuster-prod77619.aspx
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Thank you for asking: Will you please tell me how you bump the shoulder back and if you get on a roll explain to me how you move the shoulder back when sizing a case with a die that has full length body support. Again, I have no other way of saying it; "I find it impossible to bump the shoulder back and I find it impossible to move the shoulder back when sizing with a die that has full length body support". I have no problem shortening the case from the datum to the case head when sizing a case.
F. Guffey
Frank, honestly . . .
You wish for the rest of the community, many of whom have vast experience and knowledge, to acquiesce and adopt your terminology. "Moving the datum line" and "bumping the shoulder" mean the same thing. For all I know, I could learn a great deal from you and I'm willing to listen, but your constant bully-ragging and contemptuous responses do absolutely nothing for me.
While to you it's all the same brass, to the manufacturer it may well have been different brass lots, different annealing stations, and different forming presses, run by different operators on different days, all of which ended up in the same box. .002" is really quite small, and brass tends to be slightly springy; could be you're just seeing normal variance. Others have already explained this better.
JTL, thank you, I appreciate your civil response; and honesty.
I can not move the datum, back to the only one, there is a remote chance I am the only one that understands the datum can be changed but it can not be moved. MEANING: I can change the datum from .375" to .400" or .300" because I make datums, I collect datums and on rare occasions I purchase datums, I do not pay much for them because they are so easy to make. The one thing a reloader must understand If the datum diameter is not SAAMI's datum for the chamber and or cartridge they will not correlate the dimensions of the chamber or case. When the reloader is not using the correct datum they can use the random datum when using a comparator.
There is one forum that has 'the tool and die maker extraordinaire', he is afraid someone is going to outdo him so he feels threatened, not my problem. I found fault with a Sinclair/Hornady tool, the tool was built with bushings that had rounded edges (some call rounded edges 'edge with a radius'. Using the radius is like using a datum with the incorrect datum/diameter. I still do not know if reloaders understand the problem when they seek precision.
F. Guffey
divingin
Gold $$ Contributor
A datum, used in this sense, is an arbitrary agreed-upon point that is used for measuring. You do not make datums. You make a tool that allows you to (hopefully) repeatedly measure to the agreed upon datum line.
The datum on a bottleneck rifle case is usually a point on the shoulder, often halfway along, that has been generally agreed upon to be a point you measure to. Since it is difficult to measure using a ruler or caliper or any other device to that point, a tool is used to allow you measure to that line (or analog thereof.)
The hole you so obliquely refer to (with your snide little "I know something you don't" attitude) is not a datum. It is a tool that allows measuring devices to reference the datum line so it can be measured. The datum itself is a mental construct that allows one to approximate the placement of the shoulder relative to the rest of the case, which is the whole point of the exercise.
I say "approximate" because other factors affect that: shoulder angle being the most prevalent, as far as I'm aware. Two cases with differing shoulder angles may have the same case base to datum measurement, but will not be the same. Does that actually matter? Perhaps, perhaps not. Depends on the rifle.
If you assume the datum line is halfway down the shoulder, it certainly is possible to change the datum to head measurement - ask anyone who re-forms cases in a die. And yes, you can move it with the case supported - the metal flows and becomes thicker where it is being compressed. How do you think the cases are formed to begin with?
Okay, so you are going to answer my question with another question...fair enough. I have a way simpler answer than any of the ones I have seen so far where guys on here have tried to explain it. The only problem is that mine is not going to be anywhere near as nice and "sugar coated" as some of them. You have maintained for a long time now that a shoulder cannot be "bumped" or otherwise moved. The only thing I can say to that is you must define bumping or moving differently than the rest of the world.
One thing I hope we can agree on...would you concede for the record that for absolute certain, no questions asked, brass {a case} is SOFTER than steel {dies, shell holders and presses}???? If you are answering "no" to this then I am done here and you are dumber than I can believe. I am going to proceed as if you are saying yes to this.
I have a full length size die that along with my shell holder and Rock Chucker press at it's highest point with the die set as low as it will go and still barely cam over, it will size a 223 case to 1.463" base to datum line {shoulder}. I take a fired case that measures 1.468" on the datum {shoulder} BEFORE it was sized and run it thru the press. I check it as sized and it is 1.463" on the datum {shoulder}, just what it is supposed to be. Are you still going to maintain that I am unable to bump or move that shoulder???????
Again, unless you are playing some stupid word game, I am not seeing the rocket science here and I would like you to tell me how going from 1.468" down to 1.463" did not move or bump?????
It gets even simpler, in it's simplest form I can hit it with a hammer, are you still telling me it wont move??? I can put that shoulder all the way back to the case head a few thousandths from the flash hole...but it didn't move?????
Let's go one step more....in case you are playing a word game and referring to unaltered dies as if that is the only way they can exist...I almost always grind about .005" off the bottom of every full length size die I own the day I get it. Why??? So I can MOVE/BUMP THE SHOULDER to where ever I need it to be. Again, it's that soft brass in a steel press thing that guarantees THAT SHOULDER WILL MOVE!!! IT HAS ZERO CHOICE WHEN I PULL THE HANDLE DOWN.
Just to be sure we are on the same page....you now have the chance to tell us all exactly how, whether it is done with a reloading press or a big hammer...the shoulder is unable to be moved!!!!! And if you still maintain "no" I can/will hit one with a hammer and post the picture of a very extremely MOVED/BUMPED shoulder!!! In fact, when it is touching the flash hole that just might be as moved as it can get.
Again, I think you are playing a word game...nothing else makes sense, including any live human being being this stupid. Call it any name you want, moved, bumped, relocated...but that shoulder IS NOT IN THE SAME PLACE AS IT WAS.
And I ask: If the datum for the 25/06, 270W. 280 Remington, 30/06 and 8mm57 is the same diameter how can it be half way between the neck shoulder juncture and shoulder/case body juncture on all of the cases. I am the one that does not assume, I am the only one that can use any datum when using a comparator. And then there are standards and transfers, if you understood what a standard is and if you knew how to use it as a transfer we would not be having this conversation.
In the beginning reloaders thought the datum was a line with an arrow pointing toward it, the line was identified as the datum line, it took me years to convince them the datum was a circle/round hole. And when explaining datum on the Internet reloaders always finished with "and that is how they do it", most of them acted like they just scorned the day they ever learned to read because they still could not understand the concept of the round hole.
And they got madder when I told them I had gages, I informed them I took a picture of my gages and the picture weighted 800 pounds, that was when I knew most of them had problems because none of them smiled.
F. Guffey
Not sure why you are so angry, I make it as clear as possible, I can not move the shoulder back, I can not bump the shoulder back. the shoulder on my cases when being sized can not be moved back. I am thinking many reloaders are getting locked up and or run off the road with the word 'back'.
I am going to say you should consider the shoulder on your case after sizing is not the same shoulder you started with. I form cases, when I form cases the shoulder I finish with is not the came shoulder I started with, there is a big chance the shoulder I started with did not move, it simply became something else. like forming 308 W cases from 30/06 cases. the shoulder on the 30/06 become part of the 308 shoulder and neck; meaning the 30/06 shoulder did not move, it became something else.
I always include the part about case body support. if I could move the shoulder back with a die that has case body support the only way the shoulder could move back would be if the case collapsed inward by wrinkling. Without case body support the case forms bellows and then takes on the appearance of being something that looks like an accordion.
There is not way I am going to get reloaders to take their hands out of their pockets or get their fingers off the key board, but if I could I would suggest they scribe the case body/shoulder juncture of the case to determine if the shoulder moves.
Again, when firing a case reloaders believe the shoulder moves forward and I say there must be something reloaders do not understand etc. etc. and all they get is angry. Hatcher did research, had Hatcher scribed the shoulder/case body juncture on his cases when he built his wildcat he would have know firing his cases in his wildcat with .070" clearance did not cause case head separation.
I fired cases in one of my chambers with .127" clearance between the shoulder of the case and shoulder of the chamber. The shoulder on my short cases did not move, the case did not stretch between the case head and case body, my cases did not suffer case head separation. The cases were ejected with just a hint of a heck. I understand, I would be hard pressed to find a reloader that understands what any of that means.
F. Guffey
Yep, just like I said...a word game. Here's how we can play this word game and maybe all agree:
Let's say that the shoulder was "re-located" will that square it???? We didn't move it we re-located it. Maybe even better, we could say it was "re-formed"....yeah, will that word play do it??? We ironed it out and re-formed it, .002" back from where it still is. Word it up however, we put it in a press and did whatever you want to call it to "locate" it where it is now needed.
Good god almighty dude.....I now understand why most guys on here treat you the way they do!!!!! In my wildest whacked out LSD, cocaine, and heroin trip {all at the same time} I could not bring myself to be this godforsaken trifling!!!!! and yet you have maintained this ridiculousness for literally years.
Edit: actually guff the anger really has nothing to do with you...I have a 17 year old daughter that tries to play this exact same trifling word game with me on a daily basis.....unfortunately for her I can look right thru hers as fast as I can yours. I hate word games, and she has made me an expert at it.
The difference is that I expect it from a 17 year old, not you. I reserve the right to be mistaken about you, we have never met.
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You might consider the 'Ignore' button. You'll regain your serenity.
Seriously. Life is much more pleasant when you don't witness that drivel.
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