Accuracy: Bolt vs Semi Auto

[BoydAllen]

If you are going to deactivate the gas system of an AR, why burden yourself with its trigger limitations and poor bag riding shape and balance? At some point, doing a blank sheet design for the purpose of extreme accuracy makes a lot more sense..to me. Generally speaking, what you see on the line at benchrest matches is what has proven to work the best for that kind of shooting. For someone who has not shot to that level to think that he can come up with a better way to skin that particular cat seems more than a little silly to me. Most shooters really have no idea as to what it takes to shoot really small consistently, and it is this lack of knowledge that often lets them wander off in unproductive directions. My suggestion is that they learn how using conventional means, and then after that, if they still think that they have a better idea, go for it. The experience gained from mastering conventional methods will be very helpful in the pursuit of improving equipment. Learn how to play a guitar before you try to design a better one.

 

[243Mendoza]

Never seen a gas gun in a benchrest competition, so the bolt gun is inherently more accurate. For NRA course matches, bolt guns usually win but gas guns can win also. For long range, 800-1000yd, bolt guns dominate.

 

[swadiver]

Read this. I bought one of his 6mm ar turbo 40's. I shot.quarter inch groups. He knows his stuff.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2015/05/what-makes-an-ar-accurate-whitley-offers-answers/

thanks i had seen that article before i put this AR together and checked of all those boxes

 

[284winner]

After shooting the semi auto loading Winchester 100, Remington 742, Browning BAR and the HK in my younger days, I've really come to appreciate the incredible accuracy if the ARs. Accuracy from the sporting lineup mentioned was less than acceptable beyond 300 yards. Once I got into the AR interest, it was like shooting a semi auto bolt gun. Could not believe a gas gun could shoot with such precision. Literally one hole groups with all of them. Hard on brass...absolutely. Different seating tension is necessary and mag oal is critical. Probably the least desirable attribute of my ARs in certain shooting situations ( entirely my lack of will power) is how much ammunition I tend to burn thru on a prairie dog shoot. Seems the trigger finger has to keep that trigger rocking all day long. I tend not to be concerned with the accuracy aspect of the gun but focus more on walking the bullet into the dog on the windiest days. When I shoot my bolt guns, I tend to read wind and use the known ballistics of the load to better my second shot. Again, no fault of the weapon. It's just an addiction. I've all but retired the AR 15s and do take out the 10s a bit more as the 6.5 and 30 Cal has a bit more versatility on bigger game. Cost to shoot has increased as well but the accuracy is still incredible. I'll always love my ARs as there is a place for them at the range. I just leave them home alot more if headed west to dog towns.

 

[swadiver]

If you are going to deactivate the gas system of an AR, why burden yourself with its trigger limitations and poor bag riding shape and balance? At some point, doing a blank sheet design for the purpose of extreme accuracy makes a lot more sense..to me. Generally speaking, what you see on the line at benchrest matches is what has proven to work the best for that kind of shooting. For someone who has not shot to that level to think that he can come up with a better way to skin that particular cat seems more than a little silly to me. Most shooters really have no idea as to what it takes to shoot really small consistently, and it is this lack of knowledge that often lets them wander off in unproductive directions. My suggestion is that they learn how using conventional means, and then after that, if they still think that they have a better idea, go for it. The experience gained from mastering conventional methods will be very helpful in the pursuit of improving equipment. Learn how to play a guitar before you try to design a better one.

i am retired. i need shit to do. pure fun and experimentation

 

[BoydAllen]

i am retired. i need shit to do. pure fun and experimentation

Then there is that. Go for it, and let us know what happens.

 

[swadiver]

Then there is that. Go for it, and let us know what happens.

 

[Knotwild]

With today's technology, I just can't understand why someone isn't making an automatic bolt action.

 

[JRS]

With today's technology, I just can't understand why someone isn't making an automatic bolt action.

Switzerland and Mexico produced a few at one time.

 

[jdh47]

They tried it and it was deemed too dangerous. It was the Ross. The bolt could be manipulated so as to not lock up and could fly out the back upon firing.

Many different iterations of the turn bolt action have come along since Paul Mauser did his work. I know of no bolt action that does not infringe on at least one of his original patents.

The AR was the genius of Eugene Stoner and it has served it's purpose well but good as it is it is not competitive with the bolt action. There are just too many moving parts and action flex. If it were a winner the benchrest world would have embraced it long ago.

Joe

 

[JRS]

They tried it and it was deemed too dangerous. It was the Ross. The bolt could be manipulated so as to not lock up and could fly out the back upon firing.

Many different iterations of the turn bolt action have come along since Paul Mauser did his work. I know of no bolt action that does not infringe on at least one of his original patents.

The AR was the genius of Eugene Stoner and it has served it's purpose well but good as it is it is not competitive with the bolt action. There are just too many moving parts and action flex. If it were a winner the benchrest world would have embraced it long ago.

Joe

That is one of the reasons the BR world has trouble attracting fresh blood. They refuse to implement a few modifications and "embrace" the AR shooters to allow them to compete on neutral ground. Competition is a good thing…. "embrace" it

 

[Richard Coody]

That is one of the reasons the BR world has trouble attracting fresh blood. They refuse to implement a few modifications and "embrace" the AR shooters to allow them to compete on neutral ground. Competition is a good thing…. "embrace" it

I am curious. Are there rules in the benchrest rulebook that would preclude an AR from competing. I have read it and i see nothing keeping you from joining the ranks of the benchrest shooters.

 

[JRS]

I am curious. Are there rules in the benchrest rulebook that would preclude an AR from competing. I have read it and i see nothing keeping you from joining the ranks of the benchrest shooters.

Without getting into the rule book, take your AR to a BR competition, and let us know whether you were allowed to compete at that match. They would love to have you join the ranks, but not with your AR.

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

I am curious. Are there rules in the benchrest rulebook that would preclude an AR from competing. I have read it and i see nothing keeping you from joining the ranks of the benchrest shooters.

NBRSA rule book:
(g) Cartridge Feeding: No rifle shall be capable of semiautomatic or automatic fire. All rifles shall be loaded by hand, one cartridge at a time and fired as single shot. A manual cartridge feeder operated by hand is permitted. The cartridge feeder may not be attached to a varmint or sporter rifle but may be attached to an unlimited rifle or base but must be manually operated. The manual cartridge feeder may be loaded prior to the Commence Fire command, but no round may be placed in the rifle.

Does that mean that an AR with the gas mechanism disabled could compete? I suppose you could contact the NBRSA to find out.

IBS rule book:
B) Open Actions:
All actions shall be open and bolts removed except on the firing line between the appropriate commands
given by the Range Officer (see section III.M.3 General Instructions).

Does that mean that an AR could compete as long as you remove the bolt anytime you are not actually shooting? Maybe. Sounds like a nuisance, though, especially for a rifle that won't be competitive with the bolt rifles on the line.

 

[Brians356]

NBRSA rule book:
(g) Cartridge Feeding: No rifle shall be capable of semiautomatic or automatic fire. All rifles shall be loaded by hand, one cartridge at a time and fired as single shot. A manual cartridge feeder operated by hand is permitted. The cartridge feeder may not be attached to a varmint or sporter rifle but may be attached to an unlimited rifle or base but must be manually operated. The manual cartridge feeder may be loaded prior to the Commence Fire command, but no round may be placed in the rifle.

Does that mean that an AR with the gas mechanism disabled could compete? I suppose you could contact the NBRSA to find out.

IBS rule book:
B) Open Actions:
All actions shall be open and bolts removed except on the firing line between the appropriate commands
given by the Range Officer (see section III.M.3 General Instructions).

Does that mean that an AR could compete as long as you remove the bolt anytime you are not actually shooting? Maybe. Sounds like a nuisance, though, especially for a rifle that won't be competitive with the bolt rifles on the line.

Toby, you're just the chap to comment on my earlier question - what became of IBS' proposed "AR Benchrest" division (circa 2010?) Was it stillborn or just never caught on?

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/02/ibs-issues-final-ar-benchrest-competition-rules/
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[Toby Bradshaw]

Toby, you're just the chap to comment on my earlier question - what became of IBS' proposed "AR Benchrest" division (circa 2010?) Was it stillborn or just never caught on?

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/02/ibs-issues-final-ar-benchrest-competition-rules/
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I don't know anything about it, but there's long-ish thread on Benchrest Central. Sounds like not too many clubs put on the AR matches, and from the outset IBS said that there wouldn't be a AR class at any of the Nationals.

At our local matches some shooters have brought ARs to the factory class score shoots, but they aren't competitive with factory bolt guns. So the AR shooters either switch to bolts, or quit.

The IBS's AR-only class is probably the way to go to bring in new benchrest shooters, but by eliminating the AR class from all Nationals, the deck was stacked against the idea from the beginning.

 

[msinc]

I am not sure I fully understand what "turning off the gas system" or otherwise deactivating the bolt and carrier is supposed to change and/or how this can otherwise cause the rifle to shoot better or even different......unless I am mistaken {and I don't think I am}, the bullet is well out of the muzzle before the bolt and carrier ever unlock and start to move. Are you guys implying that movement of the bolt and carrier can somehow affect the bullet AFTER it has left the barrel??????? That don't seem right.
Of much greater effect I believe would have to be the ridiculously slow, pathetically long lock time from that hammer track. If you think of dwell time, that is the time measured from the instant the sear is broken until the bullet passes out of the muzzle....it has to be easily triple the amount of time as with a bolt gun. The hammer track with it's anemic spring has to swing what??? Well over an inch anyways {never really measured it because it is so long} as compared to a typical bolt gun which has a striker fall of typically around .250" plus or minus a few thou. Dwell and lock time can be somewhat negated by the ability to position the rifle so it does not move when being fired, but the Ar doesn't even lend itself to that as commented on previously. The bullet of a bolt gun is well down range BEFORE the bullet of an AR ever leaves the barrel if both sears are broken at precisely the same instant.
When you think about this, it's really a wonder that the Ar shoots as good as it does. I am not talking benchrest competition here, the shooting we do with AR's and varmint rifles involves setting up skeet targets at anywhere between 200 out to 500 yards and shooting them prone. I have to say that I don't see any difference out to 500 yards doing this fun type of shooting compared to rather expensive tricked out bolt guns. And the AR I have for long range is not a 3K rifle.
Still, the bottom line is that the bolt guns are more accurate as "accuracy" or shooting the smallest group is defined. Now, having four coyotes come to the call at the same time, bolt vs. AR???? No question.

 

[people]

So basically stated over and over the AR15 is the rifle to get if you are going to shoot prairie dogs PD. Barrels are cheap if your rifle does not shoot get a new one.

Also using a weak hammer spring does adversely affect accuracy. I was getting very erratic velocity readings with ammo that did measure much better in a different rifle. Switching lowers to a stronger hammer spring solved that issue.

The other thing I found is a standard A2 flash hide has tons of run out. If you are going to put one on true it and use a crush washer. All of my PD uppers have them except my older ones. Those have a recessed target crown.

It is amazing how accepting people are of bad accuracy with a semiautomatic.

 

[akajun]

Never seen a gas gun in a benchrest competition, so the bolt gun is inherently more accurate. For NRA course matches, bolt guns usually win but gas guns can win also. For long range, 800-1000yd, bolt guns dominate.

Carl bernosky won his last NRA championship with a ar in 6 Hagar
Last time he and Brandon Green went head to head, Brandon won by one point, with a Tubb gun.
It was not the rifle.
For xtc matches, working the bolt in rapids is a serious issue , not many people can whip it like Brandon. I think for that reason , in xtc, the ar space gun will win more matches than a bolt gun.

 

[Brians356]

The IBS's AR-only class is probably the way to go to bring in new benchrest shooters, but by eliminating the AR class from all Nationals, the deck was stacked against the idea from the beginning.

Bingo. Makes sense now. Strange that they took the trouble to draw up AR rules (not trivial) while never promoting it for nationals. Obviously their hearts weren't in it, and I can understand why. It probably warrants its own organization if enough folks are interested.
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