Still cant figure out my headspace.....FL sizing Die Set-up

[dmoran]

@MoneyWaster
For me any how, setting up a die to F/L resize is not a one time deal, but is an on going ritual....
Every time I reload a case(s) it is checked and adjusted if need be. Brass is continuously changing in hardness (work hardening) as well as its spring, is why it is not a 1 setting deal and need adjusting to maintain common bump numbers as we cycle through our lots of brass.

Especially when fired from different charge levels, the amount of brass expansion can really have variance (like what happened to you with your ladder tested virgin cases).
Good Luck
Donovan

 

[MoneyWaster]

Nope

This one

https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/479704/hornady-lock-n-load-headspace-gauge-5-bushing-set-with-comparator?cm_mmc=ps_google-_-google-_-GS_Tools_Jigs_Fixtures_Beta_G-_-hornady headspace gauge&gclid=CjwKCAjw-ezKBRAGEiwAu-_-LGMGcZuO1PZF91JefrgqCDnV0Rd1A9TalS3hvi76KbURSyiAeeR3mRoCMY4QAvD_BwE

I was confused on what you were recommending. I actually already have the Sinclaire headspace insert for the Hornady Lock N Load ogive measurement set. That's how I got the numbers that I reported in my original post.

 

[fguffey]

I have a blueprinted Remington 700 action with a M24 Bartlein barrel chambered in 223. I had it rechambered after shooting about 500 rounds through it because I was experiencing case/head separation on brass after about 3 reloads. My measurements on fired brass indicated excessive headspace/an excessively deep chamber. I took it back to the gunsmith who originally chambered it, and he cut a new chamber (although he said it was in range).

We have a member that called SAAMI, I can only guess he called them to inform them they have it all wrong, he insisted the case has head space. My cases do not have head space and I am one of the very few that understands SAAMI has never made a mention of case head space in their drawing, I accept that. Blue Printed? I can not believe a smith would make a claim the chamber has been bleu printed without furnishing the dimensions of the chamber. I have to ask; is there anyone of this forum that has the ability to measure the length of the chamber from the datum/shoulder to the bolt face?

My measurements on fired brass indicated excessive headspace/an excessively deep chamber. I took it back to the gunsmith who originally chambered it, and he cut a new chamber (although he said it was in range)

In range,, within tolerance? Or somewhere between go-gage length and no go-gage length? So he is a blue printer and can not measure the length of the chamber. I was told years ago a smith had to measure often because no one knows where they are when finishing and I said that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

My measurements on fired brass indicated excessive headspace/an excessively deep chamber

If I found a fired case that indicated a long chamber I would have had to measure the length of the case before firing and again after firing. Had I found the chamber was long I would have formed cases that were long from the shoulder to the case head before firing. I would have off set the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face with a case that was long from the shoulder to the case head.

Why? No one knows the length of the chamber from the datum to the bolt face in thousandths. No one? There is one exception, he is the one that has cases without head space because he off sets head space with the length of the case from the datum/shoulder to the case head.

F. Guffey

 

[MoneyWaster]

We have a member that called SAAMI, I can only guess he called them to inform them they have it all wrong, he insisted the case has head space. My cases do not have head space and I am one of the very few that understands SAAMI has never made a mention of case head space in their drawing, I accept that. Blue Printed? I can not believe a smith would make a claim the chamber has been bleu printed without furnishing the dimensions of the chamber. I have to ask; is there anyone of this forum that has the ability to measure the length of the chamber from the datum/shoulder to the bolt face?



In range,, within tolerance? Or somewhere between go-gage length and no go-gage length? So he is a blue printer and can not measure the length of the chamber. I was told years ago a smith had to measure often because no one knows where they are when finishing and I said that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.



If I found a fired case that indicated a long chamber I would have had to measure the length of the case before firing and again after firing. Had I found the chamber was long I would have formed cases that were long from the shoulder to the case head before firing. I would have off set the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face with a case that was long from the shoulder to the case head.

Why? No one knows the length of the chamber from the datum to the bolt face in thousandths. No one? There is one exception, he is the one that has cases without head space because he off sets head space with the length of the case from the datum/shoulder to the case head.

F. Guffey

F. Guffey,

In truth I probably didn't have the exact measurement from the cartridge base to the datum line of the shoulder because I was using a comparator to take the measurement. They are not exact I believe. Is that correct? They're more for taking relative measurements as I understand it.

 

[ireload2]

The Hornady tool is not very exact because the bushing datum bores have the edge broken or chamfered. This makes your readings shorter than the actual case you are measuring. To make such a tool more exact set it with a gunsmith chamber headspace gauge. Set the calipers to exactly the length listed on the headspace gauge. The very slight difference between the chamber gage and the length of your cases will result in a relatively accurate reading and that reading will be much closer to the SAAMI value for the length of the chamber.

Fake News Guffey said,

In truth I probably didn't have the exact measurement from the cartridge base to the datum line of the shoulder because I was using a comparator to take the measurement. They are not exact I believe. Is that correct? They're more for taking relative measurements as I understand it.

 

[ireload2]

We have a member that called SAAMI, I can only guess he called them to inform them they have it all wrong, he insisted the case has head space. My cases do not have head space and I am one of the very few that understands SAAMI has never made a mention of case head space in their drawing, I accept that. Blue Printed? I can not believe a smith would make a claim the chamber has been bleu printed without furnishing the dimensions of the chamber.

>>>>I have to ask; is there anyone of this forum that has the ability to measure the length of the chamber from the datum/shoulder to the bolt face? <<<

There are many ways to measure the chamber from the datum/shoulder to the bolt face. How long do you have?
I am fairly sure I could come up with 20 or 30 different methods. Or will you continue to run and hide from my comments?

Why? No one knows the length of the chamber from the datum to the bolt face in thousandths. No one? There is one exception, he is the one that has cases without head space because he off sets head space with the length of the case from the datum/shoulder to the case head.

If you can measure that dimension anyone can measure it guffey. Why don't you give up preaching?

F. Guffey

 

[dmoran]

... Why? No one knows the length of the chamber from the datum to the bolt face in thousandths. No one? There is one exception, he is the one that has cases without head space because he off sets head space with the length of the case from the datum/shoulder to the case head.

​

 

[Texas10]

I would like to offer a suggestion, at test you can perform right now without having to buy something or taking something apart.

Take a new, unfired cartridge case, preferably a brand name such as Winchester or Hornaday, and chamber it and note the ease by which the bolt handle closes. Remove it.

Using Scotch tape, put two layers of tape on the head carefully trimming around the head.
Chamber it again and note bolt closing again. If it's not significantly stiffer, add another layer or two and repeat the test until you get a much stiffer closing.

Report your findings here.

FWIW: I shoot 75 gr HPBT in 223 using a fairly stiff load out of my Savage Bolt gun. I never FL size my brass (Winchester, Hornaday and Federal) only neck sizing using a Lee Ultimate die set. I never get a stiff bolt closure, don't anneal, and have cycled the brass over a dozen times. I don't have to trim cause it doesn't grow. Run out is .001 or under (I was lucky and got a good die).
And most importantly, it shoots tiny groups.

Setting up your dies correctly so you're not stretching your brass every firing is the key. The less you work it, the longer it lasts.

 

[ireload2]

View attachment 1014426​

 

[Someoldguy]

fguffey likes to play games with terminology, definitions and superfluous information. How this is beneficial to anyone or for anything is not readily apparent.

'If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.'
Albert Einstein

 

[fguffey]

fguffey likes to play games with terminology, definitions and superfluous information. How this is beneficial to anyone or for anything is not readily apparent.

If you are unable to measure the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face just say so; don't blame me, I am the one that can measure the length of the chamber from the datum/shoulder to the bolt face 4 different ways without a head space gage. Or I can measure the length of a chamber in thousandths from the shoulder/datum to the bolt face with a field reject length gage, I can do the same with a no go length gage in thousandths.

F. Guffey

 

[ireload2]

You only say you can measure 4 ways. You never prove you can measure anything. You never post any photos. All you have to post is the same old repetitious nonsense.
If you measure as you write the English language you are still learning to read a use a tape measure.
Try posting your own original photos of an original headspace measurement using 4 different methods or what you say is nothing but more hot air by Fake News Guffey.

If you are unable to measure the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face just say so; don't blame me, I am the one that can measure the length of the chamber from the datum/shoulder to the bolt face 4 different ways without a head space gage. Or I can measure the length of a chamber in thousandths from the shoulder/datum to the bolt face with a field reject length gage, I can do the same with a no go length gage in thousandths.

F. Guffey

 

[MoneyWaster]

FWIW: I shoot 75 gr HPBT in 223 using a fairly stiff load out of my Savage Bolt gun. I never FL size my brass (Winchester, Hornaday and Federal) only neck sizing using a Lee Ultimate die set. I never get a stiff bolt closure, don't anneal, and have cycled the brass over a dozen times.

I have had the same experience with my 308; neck sizing only and velocity SDs below 10 are routine. Three shot groups less than .4" are routine. This 223 has not been the same experience at all.

 

[Someoldguy]

If you are unable to measure the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face just say so; don't blame me, I am the one that can measure the length of the chamber from the datum/shoulder to the bolt face 4 different ways without a head space gage. Or I can measure the length of a chamber in thousandths from the shoulder/datum to the bolt face with a field reject length gage, I can do the same with a no go length gage in thousandths.

F. Guffey

Sir, I never said I was having difficulty measuring chamber length. And at this point, the only thing I 'blame' you for is taking a widely misunderstood topic and contributing to the confusion. If you are attempting to help clear things up, the replies to your posts in this thread and others should have been sufficient to alert you to the fact that you are not achieving your goal. And if you are attempting to add to the confusion, . . . well. I'm not sure WHY you would want to set that as your goal.

 

[M-61]

From: someoldguy:
".....well. I'm not sure WHY you would want to set that as your goal."

However it IS his goal. There are some members think he some old master wizard reloading guru.
He is a wizard of the English language. Confusing every OP. Adding nothing but turmoil/ And since most his responses are 'he is the only one that can do....' then screw it. If he's the ONLY why the hell bother reading any further. He is it.

 

[savagedasher]

I would like to offer a suggestion, at test you can perform right now without having to buy something or taking something apart.

Take a new, unfired cartridge case, preferably a brand name such as Winchester or Hornaday, and chamber it and note the ease by which the bolt handle closes. Remove it.

Using Scotch tape, put two layers of tape on the head carefully trimming around the head.
Chamber it again and note bolt closing again. If it's not significantly stiffer, add another layer or two and repeat the test until you get a much stiffer closing.

Report your findings here.

FWIW: I shoot 75 gr HPBT in 223 using a fairly stiff load out of my Savage Bolt gun. I never FL size my brass (Winchester, Hornaday and Federal) only neck sizing using a Lee Ultimate die set. I never get a stiff bolt closure, don't anneal, and have cycled the brass over a dozen times. I don't have to trim cause it doesn't grow. Run out is .001 or under (I was lucky and got a good die).
And most importantly, it shoots tiny groups.

Setting up your dies correctly so you're not stretching your brass every firing is the key. The less you work it, the longer it lasts.

I use blue painter tape it is easier to use .
That is how I set my dies . Larry

 

[Richard Coody]

I use blue painter tape it is easier to use .
That is how I set my dies . Larry

So using your method what is the difference between your fired brass and.your freshly resized brass?

 

[savagedasher]

So using your method what is the difference between your fired brass and.your freshly resized brass?

One strip of tape Is the difference between the bolt closing correctly and not .
All my brass is different depending on the annealing Larry

 

[Richard Coody]

One strip of tape Is the difference between the bolt closing correctly and not .
All my brass is different depending on the annealing Larry

Well look at the pics below. Fired brass and sized brass from my 6BR. I anneal every 3 to 5 firings. My fired brass, all of the 50 rounds, have the same measurement and all the sized brass has the same measurement. Doesn't matter if it is freshly annealed or the 5th firing.

 

[savagedasher]

Well look at the pics below. Fired brass and sized brass from my 6BR. I anneal every 3 to 5 firings. My fired brass, all of the 50 rounds, have the same measurement and all the sized brass has the same measurement. Doesn't matter if it is freshly annealed or the 5th firing.

The two cases I see have .001 differences between . Larry