Some cases hard to chamber, most aren't- what's going on?

[LHSmith]

Read the post #34 by Greg Walley on the thread "The click when extracting...." on Benchrest Central. He goes so far as to say max case life suffers when alternating between FL and NS. Walley is a master machinist for Kelblys, a formidable Benchrest competitor, and wildcatter.

 

[bigedp51]

Read the post #34 by Greg Walley on the thread "The click when extracting...." on Benchrest Central. He goes so far as to say max case life suffers when alternating between FL and NS. Walley is a master machinist for Kelblys, a formidable Benchrest competitor, and wildcatter.

LHSmith

This is not meant to criticize you, BUT what kind of dies does Greg Walley use to resize and bump his shoulders, custom or off the shelf factory dies.

What type rifle does the OP have meaning chamber and what dies is he using. We live in a plus and minus manufacturing world and chambers and dies vary in size.

The OP full length resized his cases and the problem disappeared, BUT I'm wondering how the shoulder of the case was supported in the dies that caused the OPs problems.

The Ops original bump die could be the problem and been made by Winston Super King Size. (over sized die humor) And we live in a plus and minus manufacturing world.

"It's not how long you make it, it's how it makes it long!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uM6mOKApEJc

 

[Concha]

Concha

I see by your bio that you are from Texas so I have a joke for you..............

How do you bury a six foot Texan?

You beat the crap out of him and put him in a match box.

Signed
Attila the Hun.

Thanks for proving my point. You even went to my profile to see if you could find a way to insult me.

P.S.
I'm glad you sending Attila it might make a good fight. But if you want to come on down and prove your point get with me and I will set up a time and place and we can dance. Otherwise STFU.

 

[bigedp51]

This posting proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that full length resizing brings the best out in any reloader. :


Full-Length Sizing Die Set-Up — Tip from Sinclair International
How to Set Up Your Full Length Sizing Die
by Ron Dague, Sinclair International Technician
From Sinclair’s Reloading Press Blog

At Sinclair International, we are often asked for a fool-proof method to set up a full-length sizing die, and begin reloading our fired cases. The method used by many target shooters today is to set up your full length die to closely match your rifle chamber and minimally full-length size your cases –as little as .001″ for bolt-action rifles. I prefer to use this method for all of my bolt-action cartridges.

STEP ONE
I like to de-prime five (5) cases (de-prime only, do not full length resize) and measure from the base of the case to the shoulder with our Sinclair Comparator Body (09-1000) and Bump Gage Insert(09-10200). We refer to this as our headspace measurement. Our Electronic Caliper (#MIC-14) works well and may be pre-set at .000” making this headspace measurement easy to capture. The Sinclair Comparator/Gauge Body and Bump Gage Inserts make this task fairly simple. L.E. Wilson Tools & Gages, Hornady Manufacturing, and RCBS all make similar units to achieve your headspace measurement.

STEP TWO
With your full-length die threaded into your reloading press, loosen the lock ring and run the press ram up toward the full length die with a shell holder in place (with no case). Then, screw the die toward the shell holder until it stops. Back the die out of the press and away from the shell holder one full turn and set the lock ring finger tight.

STEP THREE
Lubricate each of the cases with your favorite sizing lube (my favorite is Imperial Sizing Die Wax) and resize a case. Again, take a headspace measurement from base to shoulder. [When running the case up into the die, be sure the press ram moves the full limit of its upward travel.] If there’s no change in the measurement from the fired dimension, loosen the die lock ring and turn the full length sizing die downward 1/8 of a turn. [Editor’s Note: You’ll need to use smaller turn amounts as you get close to the desired amount of bump. We suggest moving just a few degrees of die rotation at a time once you’ve reached the point where the die hits the shoulder without moving it back.] Now repeat the sizing process with a second lubricated case and take the measurement again. Keep rotating the die downward gradually (in small increments) and repeat the case sizing process until you see approx-imately .001”-.002” reduction to your fired headspace measurement. We prefer a headspace reduction of approximately .001″ – .002″ for bolt action rifles and .003″ – .005″ for semi-auto rifles. You can adjust to your rifle as to what works best. Don’t forget to load 10 rounds or so and try them from the rifle’s magazine to make sure they function properly.

Full-length Sizing vs. Neck-Sizing
Just a quick word on neck sizing…..I have personally never been a big fan of neck sizing. Often times when I put neck sized cases back in the rifle, the bolt would close with some drag, or it would be a bit “snug”. This was mostly recognized with factory rifles. I didn’t have any problems with accuracy, just with cycling the action for a follow up shot. If your rifle is custom chambered with the action straightened and trued, neck sizing will work well on 4-5 firing’s and then you will need to full length size or use a body die to set the shoulders back when the cases begin to “stick”. Hope these tips help make the use of a headspace gauge and full length die set up much easier.

Ron Dague
Sinclair Tech and Reloading Instructor
800-717-8211
rond@sinclairintl.com

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2012/12/full-length-sizing-die-set-up-tip-from-sinclair-international/

 

['Freak]

This posting proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that full length resizing brings the best out in any reloader. :


Full-Length Sizing Die Set-Up — Tip from Sinclair International
How to Set Up Your Full Length Sizing Die
by Ron Dague, Sinclair International Technician
From Sinclair’s Reloading Press Blog

At Sinclair International, we are often asked for a fool-proof method to set up a full-length sizing die, and begin reloading our fired cases. The method used by many target shooters today is to set up your full length die to closely match your rifle chamber and minimally full-length size your cases –as little as .001″ for bolt-action rifles. I prefer to use this method for all of my bolt-action cartridges.

STEP ONE
I like to de-prime five (5) cases (de-prime only, do not full length resize) and measure from the base of the case to the shoulder with our Sinclair Comparator Body (09-1000) and Bump Gage Insert(09-10200). We refer to this as our headspace measurement. Our Electronic Caliper (#MIC-14) works well and may be pre-set at .000” making this headspace measurement easy to capture. The Sinclair Comparator/Gauge Body and Bump Gage Inserts make this task fairly simple. L.E. Wilson Tools & Gages, Hornady Manufacturing, and RCBS all make similar units to achieve your headspace measurement.

STEP TWO
With your full-length die threaded into your reloading press, loosen the lock ring and run the press ram up toward the full length die with a shell holder in place (with no case). Then, screw the die toward the shell holder until it stops. Back the die out of the press and away from the shell holder one full turn and set the lock ring finger tight.

STEP THREE
Lubricate each of the cases with your favorite sizing lube (my favorite is Imperial Sizing Die Wax) and resize a case. Again, take a headspace measurement from base to shoulder. [When running the case up into the die, be sure the press ram moves the full limit of its upward travel.] If there’s no change in the measurement from the fired dimension, loosen the die lock ring and turn the full length sizing die downward 1/8 of a turn. [Editor’s Note: You’ll need to use smaller turn amounts as you get close to the desired amount of bump. We suggest moving just a few degrees of die rotation at a time once you’ve reached the point where the die hits the shoulder without moving it back.] Now repeat the sizing process with a second lubricated case and take the measurement again. Keep rotating the die downward gradually (in small increments) and repeat the case sizing process until you see approx-imately .001”-.002” reduction to your fired headspace measurement. We prefer a headspace reduction of approximately .001″ – .002″ for bolt action rifles and .003″ – .005″ for semi-auto rifles. You can adjust to your rifle as to what works best. Don’t forget to load 10 rounds or so and try them from the rifle’s magazine to make sure they function properly.

Full-length Sizing vs. Neck-Sizing
Just a quick word on neck sizing…..I have personally never been a big fan of neck sizing. Often times when I put neck sized cases back in the rifle, the bolt would close with some drag, or it would be a bit “snug”. This was mostly recognized with factory rifles. I didn’t have any problems with accuracy, just with cycling the action for a follow up shot. If your rifle is custom chambered with the action straightened and trued, neck sizing will work well on 4-5 firing’s and then you will need to full length size or use a body die to set the shoulders back when the cases begin to “stick”. Hope these tips help make the use of a headspace gauge and full length die set up much easier.

Ron Dague
Sinclair Tech and Reloading Instructor
800-717-8211
rond@sinclairintl.com

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2012/12/full-length-sizing-die-set-up-tip-from-sinclair-international/

@ Step 2, Why do ‘they’ so often tell us to back the die out the press by one full turn, 1/14 tpi = .0714”, when 1/4th of a full turn of a die having 7/8-14 threads, (1/4) * (1/14) = .0179”, ought to be plenty enough to ensure that the die’s shoulder will not come into contact with the case’s shoulder?

Then ‘they’ instruct us to adjust the die nearer to the shell holder beginning with turning in the die using increments of 1/8th turn (1/8) * (1/14) = .0089” each, and then after likely the 7th of those 1/8th turn adjustments as you’re finally nearing where the die needs to be ‘they’ say begin turning in the die by only a few degrees, or (2°/360) * (1/14) = .0004” change, if the rotation was exactly 2°. Again with still several thousandths left to go and making little bitty 2° or .0004” adjustments, you’re facing a long time sneaking up on the point where the die finally contacts and gives the case shoulder a bit of a bump.

There’s nothing magical about the fact that a threaded object is going to move in or out when it’s rotated whilst captured between mating threads. How far it’ll move in or out is according to the thread pitch (tpi) and the direction and the amount of the rotation. Using a cheap calculator folk can easily figger exactly how far some fraction of a turn or any number of degrees of rotation will move any object captured between mating threads into or out of whatever that object is threaded into.

Turn a 7/8-14 die in or out by 1/8th turn and it’ll move (1/8) * (1/14) = .0089”, or for 1/16th turn (1/16) * (1/14) = .0045”, or for 1/32nd turn (1/32) * (1/14) = .0022”, or to adjust the amount of shoulder bump by .001” folk gotta give the die 1/64th of a full turn (1/64) * (1/14) = .0011”.

To adjust the die half a thousandth it’ll need only 2.5° of rotation (2.5/360) * (1/14) = .0005”.

Give it 5° of rotation if you want to make a .001” adjustment (5/360) * (1/14) = .0010”.

Nearest fraction of a turn for a ~ ½ thousandth of an inch adjustment is 1/128th turn or 2.81625°.
(1/128) * (1/14) = .0006” or same except using degrees (2.81625/360) * (1/14) = .0006”

Nearest fraction of a turn for a one thousandth of an inch adjustment is 1/64th turn or 5.625°.
(1/64) * (1/14) = .0011”, or same except using degrees (5.625/360) * (1/14) = .0011”

And so on using ever larger fractions of a turn and equivalent degrees of rotation:
(1/32) * (1/14) = .0022” same as (11.25°/360) * (1/14) = .0022”
(1/16) * (1/14) = .0045” same as (22.5°/360) * (1/14) = .0045”
(1/8) * (1/14) = .0089” same as (45°/360) * (1/14) = .0089”
(1/4) * (1/14) = .0179” same as (90°/360) * (1/14) = .0179”
(1/2) * (1/14) = .0357” same as (180°/360) * (1/14) = .0357”
One full turn (1/1) * (1/14) = .0714” is same as (360°/360) * (1/14) = .0714”

Guestimating fractions of a turn works fairly well down to ~ 1/8th of a turn or .009”, then trying to pull off 1/16th turn or .004½” is more a guessing, fergit about reasonably accurately guessing any smaller fractions. I figger folk could maybe go by some sort of appropriately spaced hash marks placed about the die body.

A miniature degree wheel would be nice, hash marks every 5°, fit over the 7/8-14 threads, sandwiched between a couple jam nuts, and with a bendable adjustable pointer wire affixed to the press. Thinkin’ this could aid accurately making real fine die adjustments down to .001”, or even to .0005” in between each 5°.

2.5° ~ .0005” 5° = .00099” 10° = .000198” 15° = .00298” 20° = .00397” 25° = .00496”
30° = .00595” 35° = .00694” 40° = .00794” 45° = .00893” 50° = .00992” 55° = .01091”
60° = .01190” 65° = .01290” 70° = .01389” 75° = .01488” 80° = .01587” 85° = .01687”
90° = .01786” 180° = .0357” 270° = .0536” 360° = .0714” 540° = .1071” 720° = .1429”

 

[BoydAllen]

Or you could buy one of these
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR7iixACxR4

 

['Freak]

BoydAllen - If that was for the ‘Freak, dialup infernal.net is our only option out here so no viewing of YouTube or any other moving picture shows for the outliers. A link to manufacturer or a source or still photos can work, if the file isn’t too awfully huge.

 

[BoydAllen]

http://www.pmatool.com/pma-micro-die-adjuster-w-thumb-screw-upgrade/

 

['Freak]

Thank ye much. That ought to do it with a good bit more precision than the mere visual aids I had in mind. Downside is too many more bucks than someone too often suffering fiscal irresponsibility need expend fer awhile. All duly noted, links saved.

 

[memilanuk]

Guestimating fractions of a turn works fairly well down to ~ 1/8th of a turn or .009”, then trying to pull off 1/16th turn or .004½” is more a guessing, fergit about reasonably accurately guessing any smaller fractions. I figger folk could maybe go by some sort of appropriately spaced hash marks placed about the die body.

Am I the only one who uses the lettering around the body of the die for this?!?

 

[fguffey]

Am I the only one who uses the lettering around the body of the die for this?!?

Could be, some use shims others use wild guestimates. I verify, instead of wild guestimates, cutouts, indexes, I verify, I go straight to verifying.

F. Guffey

 

[bigedp51]

Am I the only one who uses the lettering around the body of the die for this?!?

Using the letters are old school.....................

Raise the ram to full extension and tighten the die until the threads start to smoke and then give the die two more full turns.

Then verify that the die threads have turned a dark blue color and the smoke alarm is not still going off.

 

[BoydAllen]

When sneaking up on a .001 bump setting (without the aid of PMA's die adjuster) , I move the die in the smallest increments that I can and still have moved it. Once you do this a few times, and go past your intended mark, you start to become a calibrated tool of sorts, not perfect, but quite a bit better than when you first attempted it. Some time back, glancing through my copy of Boyer's book (I think) I came across the suggestion that one remove the bushing while making multiple adjustments, approaching the desired setting, so as not to over work a single case's neck, hardening it more than the rest of the set to which it belongs. I find that a neck brush is handy for removing neck sizing bushings from threaded dies while they are in the press.

 

[CatShooter]

[...] I came across the suggestion that one remove the bushing while making multiple adjustments, approaching the desired setting, so as not to over work a single case's neck, hardening it more than the rest of the set to which it belongs. I find that a neck brush is handy for removing neck sizing bushings from threaded dies while they are in the press.

When setting up a die, it is best to use a different fired case for each adjustment, because if you run the same case into a sizing over and over, it will get shorter than if you do each adjustment with another fired case.

 

['Freak]

Turning the die in or out so a pointer fixed to the press aligns with the next of a series of 72 dots equally spaced 5° or .038” apart around the circumference of a 7/8” OD die body will move the die .001”. A fine tip Sharpie works well enough, and no you don’t need all 72 of those dots, but it’s still not all that easy to accurately place a series of dots having only .038” separating, and the ideal location for the ring of dots always ends up being covered up by the die’s lock ring.

If a disk were mounted on the die body as high above the lock ring as can be so out the way, and if that disk were perhaps 2.865” in diameter and hashed 72 times so with the same every 5° separating, then having an OD nearly 2” greater than a die body that’ll put each of those marks spaced .125” apart about the circumference instead of only .038”, bigger gotta be better and easier to deal with.

I like what I could see about the PMA micro-adjuster and rather have it instead of a simple hardly anything to it degree wheel like thingy, but shouldn’t cost nearly as much either to produce or to buy a near nutin disk.

 

[memilanuk]

Am I the only one who uses the lettering around the body of the die for this?!?

Could be, some use shims others use wild guestimates. I verify, instead of wild guestimates, cutouts, indexes, I verify, I go straight to verifying.

Let me know how you make shims or the PMA thingy work on a Forster Co-Ax press.

 

[Richard Jones]

Am I the only one who uses the lettering around the body of the die for this?!?

Could be, some use shims others use wild guestimates. I verify, instead of wild guestimates, cutouts, indexes, I verify, I go straight to verifying.

Let me know how you make shims or the PMA thingy work on a Forster Co-Ax press.

Just thinking out loud here........ I use a Forster lock ring on my Co-Ax, nice and big. Cut/file a couple of vertical 'lines' in the die threads within your adjustment range. Mark the lock ring with however many marks you want. A light scribe on the aluminum is probably all you need, then fill it in with some marker for better contrast. If you didn't want to file the die, maybe some masking tape OAE with some vertical lines would suffice. Since the whole assembly turns in the press, you would always be able to keep the vertical lines front and center.

I'm certainly going to try this when I get home this afternoon.......

 

[memilanuk]

Rich,

I'm sure it will work fine. Actually, if a person wanted to get jiggy with it, they could have a machinist friend set up a die ring in a dividing head and make marks at specific intervals and then color them in. I could go for that. Right now, I seem to do pretty well with just eye-balling the lettering around the die body.

My comment was solely in response to those who advocate either shims or the PMA adjuster, neither of which will work on a Co-Ax.

Monte

 

[Richard Jones]

Monte,

Understood, just brainstorming.

I'm going to try and lay out a die ring this evening.....not sure I'll get 72 marks around it, but 32 should be doable, and maybe 64.

Something to play with, anyway

Rich

 

[djtjr]

I've found that once fired brass won't always size consistently. It could be as simple as some of your cases are a bit longer than others. In my experience, it takes a couple firings to be able to consistently bump the shoulder within .001". I'm not entirely sure why that is, as it seems like the first firing of the brass is when it's softest, but it's what I've observed at times.

Plus one I have seen this and had it happen to me usually on the second firing. I find that even if my bump gauges showed me setting back .001 if I added another thousandth or two the issue would go away.