Accuracy VS velocities

[LRPV]

Best- 2 or 5. I like the shapes
Worst- 3. I think it's scattered/2 groups
Vertical- 1. Just a hunch
Horizontal- 4 Because it's already spread out.

I don't do the 100 yard thing but knowing what some of my crap looks like at 200yd it's a guess.

Pulling a page out of Larry's book, I do think that I could take #3 and adjust my tuner to make it work.

 

[BartsBullets]

That's a personal problem lol

Dragman

Not really I seem to do fine with out it! But all of this discussion about doing all your tuning at 1000 if you don't have place to shoot a 1000 yards is mute! It's like trying to talk to a liberal about politics. If your not on their program you are just screwed up! There is no other way.

So all of the high speed low drag 1000 yard tuning Gurus need to help us out.

We can skip all this! Just give us your load data. We will go try it out when we get to a 1000 yard range.

Or teach me how to tune at 100 for 1000 yard shooting. If you could do that it would be helpful.

Bart

 

[BartsBullets]

Take shit, go early, load there.

Tom

THANK YOU!

I can't think of another way to do it!!! Seriously if there's another way let me know!

Bart

 

[Northridge]

TO: primarily 100yd tuners/developers (Jim, Larry, etc..), but also to anyone/everyone

Senario:

• Pictured below is 5 groups, 3-shots to each, at 100yds.

Questions:

1. which of the 5 would you predict to perform best at 1000yds and why
2. which of the 5 would you predict to perform the worse at 1000yds and why
3. which would disperse the worse vertical dispersion at 1000yds
4. which would disperse the worse horizontal dispersion at 1000yds

View attachment 1009064

I will give reply back in 24-hours
Donovan

ok donavan i will bite!!

well its clear this rifle is not completely tuned and I think that is the point but this makes it easier to move forward. assuming this is a charge ladder at 100 yards here is how i would bust things out. remember in a previous response I said at short range you will have two charges that fight for position but as you move to 1000 yards they will flip rolls the higher charge winning typically. that difference in charge for me is usually 2 tenths. so i'm going to assuming no. 1 is lower charge vs no. 3 no. 1 is a NO no. 2 NO doesn't usually work for me.

no. 4 definite NO its at the tip of the whip & likely will go tall at 1000 yards
no.1 is a NO
no.2 is a NO

no. 3 is the winner chicken dinner

no. 5 is a no its out by its self

but all this would change with seating depth

shawn williams

 

[BartsBullets]

This thread has being interrupted for another comedic commercial break!

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I have been out of the tuning talk for a few pages now. I dont care how anyone does it. If anyone wants my opinion send me an email or call. Like I said, the last year I shot a full season I tested and loaded at the range. The rifle was not touched until next time I went to a match. And it worked out very well. Is it a pain? Ya, kind of, but what are you willing to do to win? The bar is set so high right now that you just are not going to win or set new records if you dont do everything you can. A big part of why I have not shot competitively the last couple years. I have not been willing to put in that kind of dedication. If I was not even allowed to tune and load at the range I wouldnt come to a 1k match with a 100 yard tune. Id find a new hobby. I believe its that important. I am going to try a f-class match or two this year and see if I can take out @Jay Christopherson

 

[savagedasher]

View attachment 1009082

@dmoran

You know I'm not a 100 yard tuner, but since I ran my mouth I better attempt an answer.

Obviously 1 would be "best"

I'm torn between 5 and 4 for worst.

2 probably should be the vertical one.

4 is obviously the wide one.

There, right or wrong, at least I can claim my manhood lol.


Tom

Tom 1 and 2 are different trending from the point of aim one is down the other is up .
But none is a good tune . Both have a bullet width of vertical and the same of horizontal .
Not even I shooting a savage call that a tune
lol. Larry

 

[Jay Christopherson]

I have been out of the tuning talk for a few pages now. I dont care how anyone does it. If anyone wants my opinion send me an email or call. Like I said, the last year I shot a full season I tested and loaded at the range. The rifle was not touched until next time I went to a match. And it worked out very well. Is it a pain? Ya, kind of, but what are you willing to do to win? The bar is set so high right now that you just are not going to win or set new records if you dont do everything you can. A big part of why I have not shot competitively the last couple years. I have not been willing to put in that kind of dedication. If I was not even allowed to tune and load at the range I wouldnt come to a 1k match with a 100 yard tune. Id find a new hobby. I believe its that important. I am going to try a f-class match or two this year and see if I can take out @Jay Christopherson

mmmm... the smooth taste of motivation....

 

[savagedasher]

No doubt it's not probably very competitive. In your expert opinion, which is.....

Smallest
Biggest
Tallest
Wisest

Tom

Wisest don't use none lol Larry

 

[Northridge]

Tom, Alex, Donovan, Shawn

Answer this question for me. How would you tune for 1000 yard match. When you only have 100/200 yard range?

Bart

Bart there is know substitute for actual range tuning for a given yardage at intended range for match considering small groups that is a fact!!! but with that being said life and time restraints get in the way for most of us. i will us myself as a Ginnie pig until this year I have never stepped foot at deep creek on a Friday morning ever my schedule will not allow it. i'm usually one of the last on Friday night to show up the boys can verify this . we shoot mornings at most ranges so i feel shooting in the evening can be helpful but its not morning air its different in the rocky mountains at least so I put more vestment in my loads from home and there tendency's . a general process for me is a will start at a 100 yards doing a powder ladder usually one range session will do the trick. im not even looking for the smallest group at this point more where rifle grabs frequency and how long before a blow up or loss of frequency. for me pin hole groups are the start of frequency not the finish why? we are shooting 1000 yards not 100 yards. the tail end of a frequency when rifle starts to make a move is bad for 100 yard shooting but is where my time needs to be focused for 1000 yards. flat groups at a 100 yards just suck all around and are not useful in any form of shooting. from her my local range is out to 400 yards so that is where i go never going back to 100 yards ever. same thing you can get needed info at 400 yards in one range session. 400 is just far enough to see solid go-no go decisions but not scripture. at this range i will do sensitive load vs wind loads so I know. condition sensitivity is a seating depth issue not charge with in reason. this is not the finish line for me but others may have distance limitations be cause of region they live in but me i move out to 960 yards in the mountains out side of Helena MT. here i verify what i have from 400 yards this is where my short range data flips period i can label it every day of the week really. if this where a horse race this gets me three quarter track not the finish line but it as helped pull me through regular at deep creek as i actually can fend the boys off but the fact is i'm "always" leaving tune on the table and that sucks. OK this year i have embraced a change in how i spend my range time. im not shooting at home at all none. i go to deep creek Thursday night shoot Friday morning ladders and load for Saturday match. I take charges pre thrown in viles my brass is fully prepped and primed as this speeds up camper time but all ways have full reloading room in camper because as season rolls on thing change. it is my opinion that a 5 shot gun is not a 10 shot gun not because of in ability but heat & each needs handled different. i,m down to one gun this year so i,m having to share all relays with one vs 2 gun as i have not re barreled my second gun.

tuning at given match range will shorten range time and result is more sound grouping and Extended barrel life.

example: Scott Stankno is really our only local Missoula shooter, as deep creek is his home range so no bull shit every range session go's for the good & look at how well he is shooting five shot strings, this is not luck but rather smart range time where he competes. I might add he may actually be the our shortest standing shooter as far as comp go but we all better hold on i think he may have alot to bring to the table in following years.

shawn williams

 

[johara1]

This is funny, The same reamer in two different barrels the same load in two barrels, but both light guns tuned at 100 yds. the one agged. 3" and the other light shot as a heavy shot nine 4" 100's at 1000yds how can you tell me it doesn't work ? maybe not for you. Like reading mirage in your scope on your guns useless , unless you want to know what it is on the target. Jim

 

[dkhunt14]

Bart there is know substitute for actual range tuning for a given yardage at intended range for match considering small groups that is a fact!!! but with that being said life and time restraints get in the way for most of us. i will us myself as a Ginnie pig until this year I have never stepped foot at deep creek on a Friday morning ever my schedule will not allow it. i'm usually one of the last on Friday night to show up the boys can verify this . we shoot mornings at most ranges so i feel shooting in the evening can be helpful but its not morning air its different in the rocky mountains at least so I put more vestment in my loads from home and there tendency's . a general process for me is a will start at a 100 yards doing a powder ladder usually one range session will do the trick. im not even looking for the smallest group at this point more where rifle grabs frequency and how long before a blow up or loss of frequency. for me pin hole groups are the start of frequency not the finish why? we are shooting 1000 yards not 100 yards. the tail end of a frequency when rifle starts to make a move is bad for 100 yard shooting but is where my time needs to be focused for 1000 yards. flat groups at a 100 yards just suck all around and are not useful in any form of shooting. from her my local range is out to 400 yards so that is where i go never going back to 100 yards ever. same thing you can get needed info at 400 yards in one range session. 400 is just far enough to see solid go-no go decisions but not scripture. at this range i will do sensitive load vs wind loads so I know. condition sensitivity is a seating depth issue not charge with in reason. this is not the finish line for me but others may have distance limitations be cause of region they live in but me i move out to 960 yards in the mountains out side of Helena MT. here i verify what i have from 400 yards this is where my short range data flips period i can label it every day of the week really. if this where a horse race this gets me three quarter track not the finish line but it as helped pull me through regular at deep creek as i actually can fend the boys off but the fact is i'm "always" leaving tune on the table and that sucks. OK this year i have embraced a change in how i spend my range time. im not shooting at home at all none. i go to deep creek Thursday night shoot Friday morning ladders and load for Saturday match. I take charges pre thrown in viles my brass is fully prepped and primed as this speeds up camper time but all ways have full reloading room in camper because as season rolls on thing change. it is my opinion that a 5 shot gun is not a 10 shot gun not because of in ability but heat & each needs handled different. i,m down to one gun this year so i,m having to share all relays with one vs 2 gun as i have not re barreled my second gun.

tuning at given match range will shorten range time and result is more sound grouping and Extended barrel life.

example: Scott Stankno is really our only local Missoula shooter, as deep creek is his home range so no bull shit every range session go's for the good & look at how well he is shooting five shot strings, this is not luck but rather smart range time where he competes. I might add he may actually be the our shortest standing shooter as far as comp go but we all better hold on i think he may have alot to bring to the table in following years.

shawn williams

I like this answer. I believe the big bullets especially the 200 grain plus thirties don't settle till 3 or 4 hundred yards. The targets start to show what your changes do. I can throw a grain or more in a big 30 and not see any change at 100. But at 400 a .2 change can be a lot, at least enough to see. In some of my guns the difference between winning a relay and setting a record was .2 of powder. I must do things different because I look for little and round. Almost every really small group I ever saw was pretty round. When the gun does that, I believe they just shoot bigger round when conditions get worse. At least it seems my 300 WSM's seem to follow that.

At 400 you can keep track of conditions fairly well and really see what changes do to size and shape of group. Bullet holes in paper start to show what is settled down and what has the capability to shoot small. When I first started I shot a lot at 100 and with a 35 Ohler. Now I haven't gotten the chronograph out in probably at least 8 years. I let the target tell me what it wants. Matt

 

[savagedasher]

You got me, I was trying to use your language lol.

Correction: MOST WIDE


Tom

Tom you have two targets useing the point of aim for a reference One is higher in location from the + then the other . You will find a good tune in both locations . One will have a smaller hole in paper. That tune will shoot better in the same wind as tested . The paper paper tear will tell you.
Here in Florida 95% of our wind for the summer months will be a tail wind . 5 to 12 mph Excluding tide changes. At tide Change it we have a lull in the wind . But the mirage goes up and And any advantage you have from the lack wind mirage nullify .
This month is normally good for wind and mirage . But the record high we have had At 9 am the mirage has bad . Next month we have our summer rains . So it rains ever day . Wet grass, standing water and 90 temperature with high sun and winds 5 to 12 mph isn't the best to tune in .
Last year we needed a boat to get to 1000 yard . Hip boots wouldn't work .
Tom I have been working The relationship On bullet impact from the point of aim .
I never realized it existed till I worked testing Tuners . The exact same load with a tuner will have a two tunes 1/4 " different in relationships to the point of aim .
Depending on the barrel and the Es The tune Should be a small raged hole .
Larry

 

[BartsBullets]

There is another way. Just call one of us and get advice on what to spec the reamer, barrel length, and what bullets and powders to buy.

When it shoots good up closr with something that's been proven at 1000.... Then you should be within spitting distance!

Tom

Tom
That's what I was thinking!

 

[dmoran]

@johara1 -@BartsBullets - @savagedasher
I would have assumed you 3 being a 100yd tuners/developera that you would have the ability to predict from those groups which one will have the worse vertical, the best vertical, and both the best and widest disperson's at 1000yd.
If you can't, how can you say or know at 100 what will happen at 1000?

Will be back online tonight after 10pm
Donovan

 

[lawman29]

Questions:

1. which of the 5 would you predict to perform best at 1000yds and why
2. which of the 5 would you predict to perform the worse at 1000yds and why
3. which would disperse the worse vertical dispersion at 1000yds
4. which would disperse the worse horizontal dispersion at 1000yds

1. Best = group #3.5 (center of point of impact is vertically the same between 3 & 4; #2 is higher than #1 and #3; and #5 is higher than #4)
2. Worst at 1k = #5 because...
3. Worst vertical = #2 point of impact higher than #1 and #3
4. Worst horizontal = #5 because...
Caveat: I don't test at 100 anymore, 500 meters for me here at Cody...

 

[savagedasher]

There is another way. Just call one of us and get advice on what to spec the reamer, barrel length, and what bullets and powders to buy.

When it shoots good up closr with something that's been proven at 1000.... Then you should be within spitting distance!

Tom

I think we have some of Montana finest guns here . So far they haven't dominated .
lol. Larry

 

[AWLEAPHART]

How many of ya'll have a winning 1000 yard rifle and shot it at 100 yards to see what the group looks like.
Anthony L

 

[Northridge]

How many of ya'll have a winning 1000 yard rifle and shot it at 100 yards to see what the group looks like.
Anthony L

yes sir i check everything info is power...

more often than not if i miss it at a match if i reverse verfy at 100 it looks like no. 4 in donavan's ladder i blew past the tip of the whip & it went vertical at 1000 and flat at 1 hundred yards.

edit: I'm not at all trying to change any ones methodology here just sharing my personal practices that get me by at 1000 yard target matches . if I'm tuning for short range we will have to start a new thread cause that is completely a different cat with a different play book for me cause 1000 yard tuning will not hold up at that game.

shawn williams

 

[savagedasher]

I'm sorry, I draw the line at actually shooting it for you

Tom

lol when were you ask . Larry