Jet
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Bart
Sound like a lot of fun. Can we use three different rifles or will we have to shoot the same rifle/caliber/load?
Rich
Accuracy VS velocities
- Thread starter AWLEAPHART
- Start date
Bart
Sound like a lot of fun. Can we use three different rifles or will we have to shoot the same rifle/caliber/load?
Rich
+1 on that I dear.
Bart I have a good friend. Its you and no Im not a ass kisser.
Anthony L
I'd certainly let you borrow it , but the trip back will be rough!
Bart
Shawn,
That is a good question. Here's some thoughts on why I think long range shooters believe flags don't work.
First mistake is setting them too far apart. I've done this myself. Say placing them at 100, 200, 300, 400, etc. unless you can figure out a dominate flag that is moving the bullet the flags become irrelevant.
Second, a flag that's 20 to 40 ft above or below the bullet's path is worthless in most cases. It could be a different story if the the range is somewhere wide open.
Third, you have to have flags that you can see. Some guys set them in their scopes. I prefer larger flags that I can see with the naked eye. Dean Stroud was kind enough to make me a set of LARGE flags that you can see at least to 600 yards.
How I use them at different ranges venues?
I'm coming to the conclusion that in most cases less is more for long range shooting. My goal is to give the bullet a good start. I will normally run 5 to 6 flags out to 200 yards or so. At St Louis this last weekend I only used 3 flags stretched out to 150. It was raining so hard I was afraid I'd drown before I got back. At Big Piney I only used two.
How do I pick a condition? Ideally I'm looking for a condition on the flags that agrees with the mirage I'm seeing. So if the flags are holding at a right to left condition I want to see the mirage doing the same thing. Then you have to test on the sighter plate what is moving the bullet. At the very least, I'll use the flags as a go/no guage. If the first 200 yards of flags are blowing right to left and you see a major change in the condition you better stop! If they flip and you shoot and it goes in the group. You just got lucky as hell. The normal result in that scenario is you'll have a shot that's a "Dream Killer."
By watching flags at the first part of the range and mirage at the far end. You getting information on two critical ends of the range. When the bullet is starting out and at the point where its slowing down and vulnerable.
One last thing, I shoot with both eyes open. One watching the flags with the other in the scope.
Here's a pic of my Long range flags. That right there is a nice condition.
Bart
Tom, Tom, Tom, Might Mouse!
Don't get mad. You have posted invaluable information and have helped a lot of Long range shooters along the way. Your posts have helped me in learning to shoot 600yards.
As for the bullets you shot! Those were some of the very first batches when I was starting out! There's a big learning curve making those long pointy things! Since then there have been tiny aggs shot and yes 2 inch 1000 yard groups shot with them. So you Didn't shoot THOSE bullets. Be careful you may have to give James a good ass kissing! I don't think either of you would enjoy it!
Bart
Alex Wheeler
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X-Caveman
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Tom - I'm sure you know this, but your website is down. Someone told me you were making a 6.5 130gr. Are these available to the unskilled masses?
Gentleman,
Before this thread spirals any more down hill let's try to pull out of the dive. I do truely enjoy the bantering. I can keep it going but what good will it do. I really don't want to alienate my 1000 yard buddies.
So let's see the core issues here.
I stated you can get a gun close at 100 yards, but you need to do a final tune at distance. Tom, Alex, Donavan is there a big problem with that? Is that just complete crazy talk for tuning at 1000 yards. Is that what we are pissy about?
Or is it the use of flags for 600 or 1000 yard shooting that's hurting everyones feelings? As Wild and Crazy as using flags sounds to 1000 yard shooters. To a short range guy, not having flags out is insane to us. I was shooting beside Tommy Jacobs last year at St Louis. After stopping and restarting several groups Tommy looked at me and said, "dang flag reader!" (Tommys too nice to curse!). A few weeks ago I shot beside Andy Ferguson and we battled for the 2 Gun. After the match we had a long conversation about flags (he initiated) and he sees the benift and that there's something to be learned. I have been scoffed at for putting them up at 600 yard matches. I can't tell you how many times I've heard, "damn lying windflags, they don't do no good". Guess what boys and girls. Scoffing is over!
Now if you want to question my credentials bring it! But you're going to get some push back. There is "No One" on this board that shoots more or works at it any harder then I do! No One! I'm not part time, im not just staying in my comfort zone. I'm at registered matches competing against the Top Shooters in the country week after week. That 600 yards and 100/200. I'm not setting in the middle of a subdivision playing on a keyboard. So in the words of Rodney King, "Why can't we all get along?"
Besides I like Tom's humor I hate to see him mad and pissy!
Bart
Before this thread spirals any more down hill let's try to pull out of the dive. I do truely enjoy the bantering. I can keep it going but what good will it do. I really don't want to alienate my 1000 yard buddies.
So let's see the core issues here.
I stated you can get a gun close at 100 yards, but you need to do a final tune at distance. Tom, Alex, Donavan is there a big problem with that? Is that just complete crazy talk for tuning at 1000 yards. Is that what we are pissy about?
Or is it the use of flags for 600 or 1000 yard shooting that's hurting everyones feelings? As Wild and Crazy as using flags sounds to 1000 yard shooters. To a short range guy, not having flags out is insane to us. I was shooting beside Tommy Jacobs last year at St Louis. After stopping and restarting several groups Tommy looked at me and said, "dang flag reader!" (Tommys too nice to curse!). A few weeks ago I shot beside Andy Ferguson and we battled for the 2 Gun. After the match we had a long conversation about flags (he initiated) and he sees the benift and that there's something to be learned. I have been scoffed at for putting them up at 600 yard matches. I can't tell you how many times I've heard, "damn lying windflags, they don't do no good". Guess what boys and girls. Scoffing is over!
Now if you want to question my credentials bring it! But you're going to get some push back. There is "No One" on this board that shoots more or works at it any harder then I do! No One! I'm not part time, im not just staying in my comfort zone. I'm at registered matches competing against the Top Shooters in the country week after week. That 600 yards and 100/200. I'm not setting in the middle of a subdivision playing on a keyboard. So in the words of Rodney King, "Why can't we all get along?"
Besides I like Tom's humor I hate to see him mad and pissy!
Bart
Your both right... I started off shooting short range then switched to long range, I learned to shoot over flags and I have shot at 600 and 1000 using flags and it does work/helps but not all the time because there are things going on out there that you can't see.
With working up a load, I do all my load work at 600yds because that's all I have close access to, only 17 miles away and so far that has worked for me. I am seeing also that a chronograph sometimes doesn't mean anything towards accuracy. Paper never lies
With working up a load, I do all my load work at 600yds because that's all I have close access to, only 17 miles away and so far that has worked for me. I am seeing also that a chronograph sometimes doesn't mean anything towards accuracy. Paper never lies
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I also think in using flags there would be a big difference between 600 and 1000. The bullets at 600 don't lose near the velocity. They also are not near as high in the air as they are at 1000. To check a new scope before firing, I put the bottom of the bore on top the number boards on top the bank and click down to target. That is 20 feet above the target. Those bullets are up there. When they cross the road at the 300 line which is probably 100 feet below the benches, that bullet is way above land. You would need a cell tower with guide wires to put up a wind flag.
I shoot like Tom and stop when I don't like something. If I see flags do something I feel is going to change the impact or if I feel wind hit me on the neck or face. Too many times I seen sighters go complete opposite of wind flags. I am talking in complete switches. Or the next time in a big switch it goes to the same place. Ask any guy that has shot any amount at Williamsport and most will tell you. I would like to see you come here and show me your wind reading. Make me a believer. I bet if you could show them the flag reading you couldn't keep up with all the bullets you would sell. We have a big number of shooters and they buy alot. Matt
I shoot like Tom and stop when I don't like something. If I see flags do something I feel is going to change the impact or if I feel wind hit me on the neck or face. Too many times I seen sighters go complete opposite of wind flags. I am talking in complete switches. Or the next time in a big switch it goes to the same place. Ask any guy that has shot any amount at Williamsport and most will tell you. I would like to see you come here and show me your wind reading. Make me a believer. I bet if you could show them the flag reading you couldn't keep up with all the bullets you would sell. We have a big number of shooters and they buy alot. Matt
dragman
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Competition - I shoot Ridgway and at 600 yards starts a valley that is from 600 yards to around 800 yards and is around 150ft deep. That doesn't count the drop from 100-600 that is probably another 100ft. Wind flags help but watching leaves, mirage, other conditions etc is what helps (AT LEAST THERE).
All my shooting is hunting practice for ground hogs or deer. I use 1 wind flag and the rest is judging off of conditions and what is learned. I don't shoot near as much as I would like I am at work too much. I don't discount the wind reading ability of some of the shooters they have proven it, but setting all those flags isn't the end all be all. I know guys who can hit targets less than MOA 1st shot out with 1 wind flag at distances out to a mile.
All my shooting is hunting practice for ground hogs or deer. I use 1 wind flag and the rest is judging off of conditions and what is learned. I don't shoot near as much as I would like I am at work too much. I don't discount the wind reading ability of some of the shooters they have proven it, but setting all those flags isn't the end all be all. I know guys who can hit targets less than MOA 1st shot out with 1 wind flag at distances out to a mile.
Tom, the target shown was shot in a 600 yard match (4, 5-shot targets) and was shot from about 8:30 to 12:00 Noon in a variety of conditions. All of my tuning for this match was at 100 yards....because that is what I have to use. I am not sure that I can shoot 0.5 MOA at 100 yards, but if not, it won't be because of Bart's bullets. I don't have any place real close to shoot 1000 yards, but Maybe one day I will get the opportunity. Good shooting...James
The target above does not have the pertinent information listed. It was shot in a match with 4, 5-shot targets at 600 yards. The holes were pasted after each relay. The pasters were removed for the photo to reveal all 20 shots. ALL tuning before this match was done at 100 yards....since that is what I have available. James
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Bart, I think I head that in the 60's while in the Marines about a Rifle.......... Jim
Northridge
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Holy bleep!! batman a forest fire blew up sence my last thread notice Lol... First off Alex cannot get his feelings our feathers in a ruffle "he was raised by wolves" & he totes a Kevlar vest where ever he go's his armor is hard to tarnish. As far as Tom Mousel go's if you have ever shot with him or a lower bench number than him you will relize a witness the on board wind flag he sports. When conditions get to subtle to read off comes the beanie & the most sensitive of wind flags appears "his bald ass head" sporting a blinding shine when he's serious, I sport one myself work great when times get tough. I feel all included in this thread have solid systems that get them through a giving match. I have been shooting 3 to 4 times a week on average year round for near 30 years now and have tested systems from front to back at all yardages from 25 yards to far beyond 1000 yards and have picked up a lot of field smarts because of it. Thanks Bart for your flag reading input I would love to chat further sometime in Person about it, it go's with out saying it's helped you achieve personnel greatness in your shooting venues. Let talk tuning with flags in mind for a minute ,pick a yardage 100 to 400 yards what I have learned through endless "tuning sessions" with flags in mind or zero felt wind in mind is that it's only one dimensional meaning that my best tuned zero wind good flag loads are sensitive to a blow up. not holding when I miss a wind call or nat fart grabbed the bullet. So what flags do for me personally is set the stag for what is sensitive up close but may shoot silly small over flags. Then same time frame I will shoot both my no wind formula and my prospect wind formula against one another or even round Robbin at about 400 yard in heavy switching conditions a record results. This does not take several outing to due well. Close range group shooting work or F-class venues out to 1000 yards this technique frankly kicks butt. For me mirage will always trump flags if the flags disagree with mirage. Wind direction is a huge benefit for me when using flags in most venues. Shooting with wind a flag info ayers in mind has helped me a lot over the years but more indirectly than directly. Now I take what I have recorded from all these
studies and implement it to 1000 yard bench rest. More often than not here is what I find
up close 400 yard & in . If I have two load slash charge formulas that are going head to
head usually the lesser charge will slightly edge out higher charge but when you move out 1000 yards there is going to be a flip more often then not the lesser load that kicked ass is now replaced not by a tad but by a competitive margin regardless of my flag contribution at a given range. It's my belief in the rocky mountains for sure vs flat lands in the winter and spring months that thermal layers holding different densities of air trump my wind reading ability flags or not. Cold slow moving clear air with lack of mirage indictor is hard to factor my hats off to those who feel they command it. Every day every relay is a new battle.
My best results at all yardages is making decisions on the fly while I'm working a record string, gut instinct I guess but it works for me.
This winter I went to Berger SWN at Phoenix a new but fun venue for me, my first day a fellow competitor / stranger asked me where my spotting scope was I replied I'll use it when I score my partners target. He scoffed laughed and said "you'll never go anywhere like that" I shit you not a complete stranger. I actually took 1st place for the day master class 600 yds my partner placed 1st place for master class the same day. By the end of the week I actually earned my high master certification for mid range and long range with out the spotting scope. I never had the chance to speak to this man again, that was my 3rd f-class match ever.... Not to say I won't be sporting a spotting scope at sometime on the ground to track variables more methodically.
Shawn williams
studies and implement it to 1000 yard bench rest. More often than not here is what I find
up close 400 yard & in . If I have two load slash charge formulas that are going head to
head usually the lesser charge will slightly edge out higher charge but when you move out 1000 yards there is going to be a flip more often then not the lesser load that kicked ass is now replaced not by a tad but by a competitive margin regardless of my flag contribution at a given range. It's my belief in the rocky mountains for sure vs flat lands in the winter and spring months that thermal layers holding different densities of air trump my wind reading ability flags or not. Cold slow moving clear air with lack of mirage indictor is hard to factor my hats off to those who feel they command it. Every day every relay is a new battle.
My best results at all yardages is making decisions on the fly while I'm working a record string, gut instinct I guess but it works for me.
This winter I went to Berger SWN at Phoenix a new but fun venue for me, my first day a fellow competitor / stranger asked me where my spotting scope was I replied I'll use it when I score my partners target. He scoffed laughed and said "you'll never go anywhere like that" I shit you not a complete stranger. I actually took 1st place for the day master class 600 yds my partner placed 1st place for master class the same day. By the end of the week I actually earned my high master certification for mid range and long range with out the spotting scope. I never had the chance to speak to this man again, that was my 3rd f-class match ever.... Not to say I won't be sporting a spotting scope at sometime on the ground to track variables more methodically.
Shawn williams
Alex Wheeler
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Shawn,
What do you do when it's overcast or raining as far as reading conditions when there no visible mirage?
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