dmoran
Donovan Moran
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Shoulder Bumping & Neck Sizing
- Thread starter Butte Sink
- Start date
![th[7].jpg](https://forum.accurateshooter.com/data/attachments/65/65848-161743ab37b738fef9be68564ff12b01.jpg?hash=FhdDqze3OP "th[7].jpg")
Lol good grief, is there NO way that a moderator could put a muffler on the Guffy situation? You know for the average layman this stuff isn't rocket science and we can distinguish what is chicken salad and what is chicken shit...
But for a person new to this and asking the members here for their thoughts only to have "Mr.Semantics" show up simply causes confusion and possibly further creates more threads on the matter...
For crying out loud there are thousands of years of experience from proven competitors on this board and yet Guffey is "The only one" who can grasp simple mathmatics that go hand in hand with competent reloading practices???
To the OP... There is some of the best information available to you rite here on this forum from some of the best thats out there... Just remember , if it looks like crap and smells like crap....
But for a person new to this and asking the members here for their thoughts only to have "Mr.Semantics" show up simply causes confusion and possibly further creates more threads on the matter...
For crying out loud there are thousands of years of experience from proven competitors on this board and yet Guffey is "The only one" who can grasp simple mathmatics that go hand in hand with competent reloading practices???
To the OP... There is some of the best information available to you rite here on this forum from some of the best thats out there... Just remember , if it looks like crap and smells like crap....
The bad part is he confuses people and especially somebody new trying to learn. Sending them down the wrong path. Everything you said is true. I just want to see pics of his groups. If my way is wrong I want to see the groups, his way produced.
You have a lot of people on this forum that have many years experience in competition. This includes all forms of shooting, including F-Class, 600 and 1000 yard BR, and short range. Many of these guys are winners, record holders and National championship winners. They didn't learn what they know in a short time. Many of them have many years and thousands upon thousands of rounds down range. Matt
Quote from dkhunter14:
"The bad part is he confuses people and especially somebody new trying to learn."
Quote from Patch700:
"...good grief, is there NO way that a moderator could put a muffler on the Guffy situation?"
Especially in this case (and many others). The OP stated in his opening sentence that he is new to reloading. On top of this he just joined the site and it is his first post. I think that convoluted, confusing, and irrelevant responses cause way more harm than a urinary contest between folks that may result in their removal from the site. The OP is unaware of the 'guffey' situation and therefore either goes nuts trying to figure it out, looks for another site, or says the heck with reloading. At least in the posts that get derailed because of being 'abusive' there was some good solid info them to be learned and other than someones ego being bruised...no harm. I thought the purpose of the site was to help or ask for help with reloading. These replies only serve as a futile exercise in trying to decipher what is actually meant. (so far I have been unsuccessful).
And if you are NEW to reloading and NEW to the site.....well?
(I am NOT implying I'm smarter, nor more skilled. He could be the worlds greatest reloader for all I know. I am probably older and that is it. Just see the responses being not being helpful in any way at all)
"The bad part is he confuses people and especially somebody new trying to learn."
Quote from Patch700:
"...good grief, is there NO way that a moderator could put a muffler on the Guffy situation?"
Especially in this case (and many others). The OP stated in his opening sentence that he is new to reloading. On top of this he just joined the site and it is his first post. I think that convoluted, confusing, and irrelevant responses cause way more harm than a urinary contest between folks that may result in their removal from the site. The OP is unaware of the 'guffey' situation and therefore either goes nuts trying to figure it out, looks for another site, or says the heck with reloading. At least in the posts that get derailed because of being 'abusive' there was some good solid info them to be learned and other than someones ego being bruised...no harm. I thought the purpose of the site was to help or ask for help with reloading. These replies only serve as a futile exercise in trying to decipher what is actually meant. (so far I have been unsuccessful).
And if you are NEW to reloading and NEW to the site.....well?
(I am NOT implying I'm smarter, nor more skilled. He could be the worlds greatest reloader for all I know. I am probably older and that is it. Just see the responses being not being helpful in any way at all)
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I'd put him on ignore but for the fact that he helps keep this place, "better'n the funny papers"
He and savagedasher are the best "comic relief" on this site.
He and savagedasher are the best "comic relief" on this site.
I agree. In trying to improve my Cryptanalysis skills it is invaluable. However for someone that starts with "I am new to reloading"....that's where I see the problem.
Patch700, prove to me you can move the shoulder of the case back. I can not be more honest when I say I find it impossible to move the shoulder back. It gets more complicated when a reloader starts talking about case head separation, and I wonder how they can do that without sorting through the illusion of bumping the shoulder back. I ask a question, it makes you mad; if you do not understand the question simply say you do not understand.
Years ago a seller was selling 8mm57 cases he claimed were formed from 30/06 cases, he was forming the cases from 30/06 blanks; did that matter? At the time reloaders on reloading forums were claiming forming cases from blanks was a bad habit. I knew the cases were formed from blank cases because the 30/06 shoulder on the blank case did not move when the case was formed.
So if I am wrong tell me how you would prove the shoulder moved when sized, formed and or fired. I understand it sounds cool to say; "I bump etc.", There has to be a few members that have investigative skills (google search), I do not need Google search because I have the old instructions from the '50s. One set is for the non cam over press, it is said the non cam over press is not a bump press. The instructions for the cam over press claim the cam over press is a bump press. It should not be difficult for a reloader to determine why the cam over press is called a bump press; the bump press bumps the die against the shell holder twice, once on the way up and again once on the way down. And then they claim the die is adjusted differently for the two presses.
F. Guffey
Years ago a seller was selling 8mm57 cases he claimed were formed from 30/06 cases, he was forming the cases from 30/06 blanks; did that matter? At the time reloaders on reloading forums were claiming forming cases from blanks was a bad habit. I knew the cases were formed from blank cases because the 30/06 shoulder on the blank case did not move when the case was formed.
So if I am wrong tell me how you would prove the shoulder moved when sized, formed and or fired. I understand it sounds cool to say; "I bump etc.", There has to be a few members that have investigative skills (google search), I do not need Google search because I have the old instructions from the '50s. One set is for the non cam over press, it is said the non cam over press is not a bump press. The instructions for the cam over press claim the cam over press is a bump press. It should not be difficult for a reloader to determine why the cam over press is called a bump press; the bump press bumps the die against the shell holder twice, once on the way up and again once on the way down. And then they claim the die is adjusted differently for the two presses.
F. Guffey
Guffey
The only thing you loaded in the '50s was a diaper.
Why don't you cut the BS?
>>>I knew the cases were formed from blank cases because the 30/06 shoulder on the blank case did not move when the case was formed.<<<<
This is baloney. You cannot tell an 8x57 case formed from a .30-06 blank because the neck gets cut off. All you can tell is that it was a .30-06 case. Here is proof.
The only thing you loaded in the '50s was a diaper.
Why don't you cut the BS?
>>>I knew the cases were formed from blank cases because the 30/06 shoulder on the blank case did not move when the case was formed.<<<<
This is baloney. You cannot tell an 8x57 case formed from a .30-06 blank because the neck gets cut off. All you can tell is that it was a .30-06 case. Here is proof.
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Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
nevermind 
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That will quickly result in the deletion of this thread. Perhaps you have not read the warnings from the Forum Boss. Forum Behavior Issues.
That's the problem Mr Guffey. Lots of things have drastically changed since the 50's. Techniques, measuring. Bullets, barrels, computer programs and even powder and primers. We now have color TV, Internet, better cars, and a whole bunch of things. Guys have shown you pictures of shoulders being moved way back when forming cases. If the shoulder did not move back, it would be in front of the neck on some of them. Matt
dmoran
Donovan Moran
@fguffey -
Will attempt to help you grasp "shoulder bump" with actual pictures of a case and its measurements both before & after sizing. Below is a picture of the spent case sitting in a shell holder on a RCBS press, fallowed by the before & after measurements and of a "shoulder bump gauge" :
Note to picture above: a "shoulder bump gauge" , from a barrel stub with a neck and shoulder chambered into it, from the same chamber reamer used to chamber the barrel that the spent brass was fired in.
As you can see by the before & after measurements, the shoulder location was a reduction in measurement, as were all the measurements except the over-all case length, which grew 0.001" in the sizing operation from brass flow. None of the measurements stayed the same, showing that the case was completely full re-sized and all measured aspects including the shoulders location was moved. Hence a 0.003" bumped shoulder.... !.!.!
"Easy peasy"
Donovan
Will attempt to help you grasp "shoulder bump" with actual pictures of a case and its measurements both before & after sizing. Below is a picture of the spent case sitting in a shell holder on a RCBS press, fallowed by the before & after measurements and of a "shoulder bump gauge" :
Note to picture above: a "shoulder bump gauge" , from a barrel stub with a neck and shoulder chambered into it, from the same chamber reamer used to chamber the barrel that the spent brass was fired in.
As you can see by the before & after measurements, the shoulder location was a reduction in measurement, as were all the measurements except the over-all case length, which grew 0.001" in the sizing operation from brass flow. None of the measurements stayed the same, showing that the case was completely full re-sized and all measured aspects including the shoulders location was moved. Hence a 0.003" bumped shoulder.... !.!.!
"Easy peasy"
Donovan
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centerlineseal
Gold $$ Contributor
Poor OP! Hang in there Bud, discussions are usually much better here.
However, ..."The only thing you loaded in the '50s was a diaper." Now that was funny!
However, ..."The only thing you loaded in the '50s was a diaper." Now that was funny!
ttfreestyle
Silver $$ Contributor
@fguffey -
Will attempt to help you grasp "shoulder bump" with actual pictures of a case and its measurements both before & after sizing. Below is a picture of the spent case sitting in a shell holder on a RCBS press, fallowed by the before & after measurements and of a "shoulder bump gauge"
View attachment 1006923
View attachment 1006924
Note to picture above: a "shoulder bump gauge" , from a barrel stub with a neck and shoulder chambered into it, from the same chamber reamer used to chamber the barrel that the spent brass was fired in.
As you can see by the before & after measurements, the shoulder location was a reduction in measurement, as were all the measurements except the over-all case length, which grew 0.001" in the sizing operation from brass flow. None of the measurements stayed the same, showing that the case was completely full re-sized and all measured aspects including the shoulders location was moved. Hence a 0.003" bumped shoulder.... !.!.!
"Easy peasy"
Donovan
Nicely presented, this leaves no doubt
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