Shoulder Bumping & Neck Sizing

[fguffey]

Poor OP! Hang in there Bud, discussions are usually much better here.

Cneterlineseal, Butte Sink has ask the same question on different forums, he has received the same answers with one exception. I would suggest he study the press and dies, until someone explains the relation between the threads and travel he will struggle with the difference between neck sizing and returning the case to minimum length/full length sizing. I do not get into mortal combat with threads and the incline plane; and then there is the feeler gage. I get 5 different case length when sizing a case when adjusting the die with a feeler gage.

I am not the fan of starting a reloader off in a dead run.

F. Guffey

 

[LHSmith]

Cneterlineseal, Butte Sink has ask the same question on different forums, he has received the same answers with one exception. I would suggest he study the press and dies, until someone explains the relation between the threads and travel he will struggle with the difference between neck sizing and returning the case to minimum length/full length sizing. I do not get into mortal combat with threads and the incline plane; and then there is the feeler gage. I get 5 different case length when sizing a case when adjusting the die with a feeler gage.

I am not the fan of starting a reloader off in a dead run.

F. Guffey

Lord forgive me....but what are you calling "case length"? Define from the case head to what part of the case? using what gages? Do you load only charges near starting load? Do you ever get bolt click or excessive bolt closure resistance.

 

[Richard Coody]

Cneterlineseal, Butte Sink has ask the same question on different forums, he has received the same answers with one exception. I would suggest he study the press and dies, until someone explains the relation between the threads and travel he will struggle with the difference between neck sizing and returning the case to minimum length/full length sizing. I do not get into mortal combat with threads and the incline plane; and then there is the feeler gage. I get 5 different case length when sizing a case when adjusting the die with a feeler gage.

I am not the fan of starting a reloader off in a dead run.

F. Guffey

Damn you are.funny!

Are you just one.of those neck sizing defenders

Your post are.hilarious

 

[Patch700]

Patch700, prove to me you can move the shoulder of the case back. I can not be more honest when I say I find it impossible to move the shoulder back. It gets more complicated when a reloader starts talking about case head separation, and I wonder how they can do that without sorting through the illusion of bumping the shoulder back. I ask a question, it makes you mad; if you do not understand the question simply say you do not understand.

Years ago a seller was selling 8mm57 cases he claimed were formed from 30/06 cases, he was forming the cases from 30/06 blanks; did that matter? At the time reloaders on reloading forums were claiming forming cases from blanks was a bad habit. I knew the cases were formed from blank cases because the 30/06 shoulder on the blank case did not move when the case was formed.

So if I am wrong tell me how you would prove the shoulder moved when sized, formed and or fired. I understand it sounds cool to say; "I bump etc.", There has to be a few members that have investigative skills (google search), I do not need Google search because I have the old instructions from the '50s. One set is for the non cam over press, it is said the non cam over press is not a bump press. The instructions for the cam over press claim the cam over press is a bump press. It should not be difficult for a reloader to determine why the cam over press is called a bump press; the bump press bumps the die against the shell holder twice, once on the way up and again once on the way down. And then they claim the die is adjusted differently for the two presses.

F. Guffey

I believe it is you who does not understand... And that is ok Mr.Guffey , there are things some people grasp and others not so much... So if you cannot understand how it is that I can move a shoulder back then so be it. Perhaps you might address me as "Merlin the magical shoulder mover backer" and we can go on entertaining Eddie Harren lol.

Have a good night.

 

[fguffey]

Damn you are.funny!

Are you just one.of those neck sizing defenders

Your post are Hilarious

Cody, thank you, I do not defend neck sizing, I have neck sizing dies, lots of neck sizing dies, I do not use them but I have them just in case.
I do have full length sizing dies and most of them have threads that match my press. I am not the reloaders that uses wild guesses when adjusting the die to the press, when it is important I use a feeler gage; I am not the reloaders that claims they bump the shoulder .002", I am the one that shortens the case between the shoulder to the case head, I can shorten a case between the shoulder and case head; problem, I can not move the shoulder back when I size the case.

F. Guffey

 

[Richard Coody]

Cody, thank you, I do not defend neck sizing, I have neck sizing dies, lots of neck sizing dies, I do not use them but I have them just in case.
I do have full length sizing dies and most of them have threads that match my press. I am not the reloaders that uses wild guesses when adjusting the die to the press, when it is important I use a feeler gage; I am not the reloaders that claims they bump the shoulder .002", I am the one that shortens the case between the shoulder to the case head, I can shorten a case between the shoulder and case head; problem, I can not move the shoulder back when I size the case.

F. Guffey

seems to me a matter of semantics. Were you an English major when you were in college.

Personally I have tried it all. Neck sizing bushing dies, the lee collet neck sizing dies, body dies and full length dies. mostly now I use forster full length sizing dies although I do have Whidden and Allen custom dies for some of my more accurate rifles. Even the customs are full length sizing dies. See no benefit from doing it any other way.

I have tried most of the seaters out there too. Got a cabinet full. Mostly now I use the Wilson in line seater and an arbor press.

Most people have never seen what happens to brass inside a sizing die. Obviously you have been curious enough to stop the process in the middle and see that as the cartridge is sized but before it hits the shoulder of the die it is squeezed longer. Once the brass hits the shoulder once again it is squeezed back shorter. When someone says to you they bump their shoulder back one or two thousands the reality is the finished sized brass is one or two thousands shorter than the fired brass but the brass grew and was squeezed down more than that in the die. In the end they bumped the shoulder 1 to 2 thousands from the fired state. What happened between the two doesn't really matter to most folks. Don't know why you have such a problem with this.

 

[fguffey]

Don't know why you have such a problem with this.

Cody, I do not have a problem with 'it'; I can not move the shoulder back on a case with a die that has full body support, those that claim they can move the shoulder back are assuming that is what is happening. Same with pulling a sizing plug through the neck when they lower the ram; they assume the sizing plug pulls the neck and increases the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head; and they get all out of shape when I ask how would they go about measuring the effect the plug has on pulling the neck. One of the better answers was: "Cause" and they add the part about increasing head of the case and we know the case does not have head space.

F. Guffey

 

[Richard Coody]

Cody, I do not have a problem with 'itx; I can not move the shoulder back on a case with a die that has full body support, those that claim they can move the shoulder back are assuming that is what is happening. Same with pulling a sizing plug through the neck when they lower the ram; they assume the sizing plug pulls the neck and increases the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head; and they get all out of shape when I ask how would they go about measuring the effect the plug has on pulling the neck. One of the better answers was: "Cause" and they add the part about increasing head of the case and we know the case does not have head space.

F. Guffey

 

[Richard Coody]

I can not move the shoulder back on a case with a die that has full body support, those that claim they can move the shoulder back are assuming that is what is happening

So explain to this dumb old country boy just how the base to shoulder length gets shorter after sizing a fired case if you didn't (move the shoulder back)?

 

[LHSmith]

I can shorten a case between the shoulder and case head; problem, I can not move the shoulder back when I size the case.

F. Guffey

The only way possible to perform the above is to remove brass from the case head. Good heavens Gooffy....DO NOT DO THAT!

 

[fguffey]

So explain just how the base to shoulder length gets shorter after sizing a fired case if you didn't (move the shoulder back)?

The case gets shorter during sizing, the shoulder does not move back because it can not move back. I have scribed cases at the case body/shoulder juncture, if the shoulder moved back the scribed mark would have moved with it. The shoulder on the sized case is not the same shoulder the case started with. I have formed 30/06 cases to 8mm57 cases; when forming the shoulder did not move back .127", part of the new shoulder was formed from the case body and part of the old shoulder became part of the neck. When sizing and or forming the shoulder does not move back.

F. Guffey

 

[Richard Coody]

I have done quite a bit of necking up/down necks and fireforming wildcat brass. When you blow out the shoulders on a case part of the origin shoulder becomes part of the new case side.and part of the original neck becomes part of the new shoulder.

Same thing happens with any cartridge when fired. The brass becomes plastic for a milisecond under heat and pressure and forms to the chamber. Lucky for us it instantly springs away from the chamber walls but retains much of its new form. When you size it you return it to its previous shape.

Now if you were to believe that the brass flows toward the case neck, and it does to some extent, then we would be trimming after every firing. I have cases with 40 degree shoulders that will not need trimming for the life of the case.

 

[ireload2]

Guffey
Why don't you give up on the cute semantics unless you just enjoy making enemies.
Apparently you are intentionally trying to equate a scratch mark with the shoulder in order to play your infantile word games.

I have formed many 8X57 cases from both .30-06 and .270 cases.
In every case (bad pun intended) there was only one shoulder when I started.
That shoulder was moved to make an 8X57 shoulder.

The case gets shorter during sizing, the shoulder does not move back because it can not move back. I have scribed cases at the case body/shoulder juncture, if the shoulder moved back the scribed mark would have moved with it. The shoulder on the sized case is not the same shoulder the case started with. I have formed 30/06 cases to 8mm57 cases; when forming the shoulder did not move back .127", part of the new shoulder was formed from the case body and part of the old shoulder became part of the neck. When sizing and or forming the shoulder does not move back.

F. Guffey

 

[LHSmith]

Cody, thank you, I do not defend neck sizing, I have neck sizing dies, lots of neck sizing dies, I do not use them but I have them just in case.
I do have full length sizing dies and most of them have threads that match my press. I am not the reloaders that uses wild guesses when adjusting the die to the press, when it is important I use a feeler gage; I am not the reloaders that claims they bump the shoulder .002", I am the one that shortens the case between the shoulder to the case head, I can shorten a case between the shoulder and case head; problem, I can not move the shoulder back when I size the case.

F. Guffey

Interpreting the Guffyism's.....Guffy always uses FL sizing dies in the same way "normal" reloaders do ....BUT.... he adjusts shoulder -to- case head length ( aka BUMP) by jamming various thicknesses of feeler gage stock between the cartridge case head and shellholder to obtain the proper case head to bolt face clearance (aka cartridge HEADSPACE to many on this board).
While that method may work for him, he is the ONLY one that I know of that does it....I have never heard of that method in all my previous 49 years on the (reloading) bench. Most reloaders simply fine adjust the die threads to get the proper outcome. Accuracy freaks will fine tune the shoulder setback to with-in 0.0005" by using die shims (or a PMA or Carsterson die adjuster) which get placed between the die and top of the press.
I tried Guggy's feeler gage method and my main concern is it further restricts the shell holders ability to float in the ram. I want as much float as possible going into the fixed die so I use an o-ring to retain the shell holder. The other drawback to his method is feeler gauges in the thickness required are awful flimsy to handle successfully for what he is trying to do.
For the press thread remark- I know of only two machine threads sizes used for reloading dies- 7/8-14 and 1-1/2-12. Perhaps Guffy laps the threads to get adjustments down to the micron level.

 

[dmoran]

@LHSmith
Agree with you 100% on all you wrote....... good post !.!.!

I to have used feeler gauges to rise a case off the shell-holder deck height, and while it does work I found there to be several displeasing limitations:
- found it to be very limited in the amount of feeler gauge thickness that can fit under the cases
- found feeler gauges to be cumbersome to keep in place and/or to re-insert
- found out that feeler gauges can get bent/crushed/damaged very easily from the repeated operation
- found that some feeler gauges are a poor fit under the case all together, that can induce run-out
Myself use die shims (Skip's) under the dies to make adjustments, or by turning them.
Donovan

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Its time to ignore Mr. Guffey. His only contribution to the forum is to confuse and/or irritate.

 

[leatherstocking]

I've learned a thing or two by deciphering Mr. Guffey's posts over a period of time. There is often good info there.
About the feeler gage issue,
Let's say a reloader wanted to shorten a case from base to shoulder by .002. Would it be possible to turn the FL die up a bit with a case in the die, then insert a feeler gage (.002) between the shell holder and the bottom of the die. Turn the die down to contact the case, then remove the feeler gage and size the case down .002?

 

[savagedasher]

I've learned a thing or two by deciphering Mr. Guffey's posts over a period of time. There is often good info there.
About the feeler gage issue,
Let's say a reloader wanted to shorten a case from base to shoulder by .002. Would it be possible to turn the FL die up a bit with a case in the die, then insert a feeler gage (.002) between the shell holder and the bottom of the die. Turn the die down to contact the case, then remove the feeler gage and size the case down .002?

Feeler gauges has be used for years . But we didn't anneal then . If the case closed hard we used a feeler gauge rather the move the setting . Old school works today like it did years before . Larry

 

[dkhunt14]

The case gets shorter during sizing, the shoulder does not move back because it can not move back. I have scribed cases at the case body/shoulder juncture, if the shoulder moved back the scribed mark would have moved with it. The shoulder on the sized case is not the same shoulder the case started with. I have formed 30/06 cases to 8mm57 cases; when forming the shoulder did not move back .127", part of the new shoulder was formed from the case body and part of the old shoulder became part of the neck. When sizing and or forming the shoulder does not move back.

F. Guffey

The shoulder goes all the way to the neck junction. I can see the body shoulder junction not moving much. It has a radius on the outside. But the rest moves and can be measured. Matt

 

[leatherstocking]

Savagedasher, Do you put the feeler gage between the case and the shell holder?