NRA AR-Tactical rifle div, questions.

[Berger.Fan222]

I tend to agree with eric. Like a lot of things, there may be guys who dump in lots of cash and abide by the letter of the rules rather than the spirit. But it's kinda taken off at some matches I attend, and most competitors are shooting the scoped ARs they already own. No one seems to be gaming it (yet). Guys seem to be having a lot of fun and enjoying it regardless of where they are finishing in the standings.

I think it is a great event for guys who have not shot High Power before and who may not really be aware of what their ARs can and cannot do. I've already got some folks asking me for advice on out of the box ARs and uppers to improve their scores with modest investment. I don't have that much experience with ARs in competition, but I coached a couple of shooters to 200-20x scores with bolt actions, and that attracted attention.
I think I can help get guys into the 190s in the new AR division with .223s on a limited budget. Rock River upper receivers seem to be at a sweet spot in terms of the price and accuracy trade-offs. Anyone got better ideas? These guys are hoping to put together rigs for more general purpose use rather than tricked out rifles that only get used in this event. They regularly shoot tactical matches needing fast follow-up and round counts that tend to exclude larger calibers.

After the election, prices should be dropping a bit, so it might be the right time for investing in out of the box AR rigs that include this new discipline.

 

[eric32]

This is going to the be rig new for the new year

RRA Varmint A4 20" 223rem
SWFA 12X or if i want to get fancy Bushnell new LRTS
Atlas Bipod(already have it)

 

[XTR]

I think that it misses the mark in a two major ways.

First and foremost is the range of chamberings allowed. If this ever evolved into a serious class I'd predict that very quickly all serious shooters would be going for the ballistic and recoil advantage of a 6mm over pretty much anything else. If we could shoot 260s in F-TR do you think anyone would be using a 308? Look in the PRS classes, 308s are relegated to handicapped status. In any case I think running a 223 or a 308 side by side at 600 yards with a 260 or a 6 is going to put the the former at a pretty significant ballistic disadvantage.

Second is scopes, this is a tactical class, not a hunting class, the quality scope manufacturers pretty much all have a scope in the 25x range and one that is about 14x. At 14x you can find a high quality scope that is capable of repeatable dialing. Calling for a 12x is very 2010, it eliminates most of the competition quality scope out there today.

 

[Erud]

I tend to agree with eric. Like a lot of things, there may be guys who dump in lots of cash and abide by the letter of the rules rather than the spirit. But it's kinda taken off at some matches I attend, and most competitors are shooting the scoped ARs they already own. No one seems to be gaming it (yet). Guys seem to be having a lot of fun and enjoying it regardless of where they are finishing in the standings.

I think it is a great event for guys who have not shot High Power before and who may not really be aware of what their ARs can and cannot do. I've already got some folks asking me for advice on out of the box ARs and uppers to improve their scores with modest investment. I don't have that much experience with ARs in competition, but I coached a couple of shooters to 200-20x scores with bolt actions, and that attracted attention.
I think I can help get guys into the 190s in the new AR division with .223s on a limited budget. Rock River upper receivers seem to be at a sweet spot in terms of the price and accuracy trade-offs. Anyone got better ideas? These guys are hoping to put together rigs for more general purpose use rather than tricked out rifles that only get used in this event. They regularly shoot tactical matches needing fast follow-up and round counts that tend to exclude larger calibers.

After the election, prices should be dropping a bit, so it might be the right time for investing in out of the box AR rigs that include this new discipline.

I guess it's good if it gets new shooters into competitive shooting. Keep in mind the Highpower target used for this was designed for sling and irons, and there are plenty who can shoot high x-count cleans pretty regularly on it with that type of setup. 200-20x with a bipod and 12x scope should be fairly easy on that target in decent conditions. I'd hate to see guys get started and stay in this class, or purchase/build rifles just to shoot it. Sort of like going bowling with the bumper rails up when you're a kid, then never putting putting them down when you grow up...

 

[eric32]

Well sign me up!!!!

But with a 2 MOA 10ring and 1 MOA X ring. Combined with a 12X scope i think makes the cartridge selection more of a wash that a completely run away.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

First and foremost is the range of chamberings allowed. If this ever evolved into a serious class I'd predict that very quickly all serious shooters would be going for the ballistic and recoil advantage of a 6mm over pretty much anything else. If we could shoot 260s in F-TR do you think anyone would be using a 308? Look in the PRS classes, 308s are relegated to handicapped status. In any case I think running a 223 or a 308 side by side at 600 yards with a 260 or a 6 is going to put the the former at a pretty significant ballistic disadvantage.

Second is scopes, this is a tactical class, not a hunting class, the quality scope manufacturers pretty much all have a scope in the 25x range and one that is about 14x. At 14x you can find a high quality scope that is capable of repeatable dialing. Calling for a 12x is very 2010, it eliminates most of the competition quality scope out there today.

I can see that viewpoint from folks who shoot mainly at Oak Ridge. But there are a lot of still days in E Texas and along the Gulf coast (Palo Alto, etc.) Yes, there are days when the guys shooting .223s wish for more, but there are a lot of days when they don't.

I'm not sure the guys gaming it with custom ARs in middle calibers are going to dampen the enthusiasm of the guys showing up to practice and improve with their (more or less) factory ARs. When their skills reach the limit of what a given AR can do, they may get a new upper receiver, or they may move along to another AR centered discipline to build their skills in another area.

But there are a lot of AR owners out there and a lot of rifles already in safes that will allow their shooters to stretch their legs and learn a lot shooting Mid-Range High Power. You don't need to win to have fun and grow in your skills.

Getting ARs sufficiently accurate to shoot that first 200-20X at 600 yards will not be an easy trick. The National matches may quickly turn into X count contests for the equipment gamers, but the local matches are likely to have more modest scores for most shooters.

 

[Park ranger]

This game is shot on the sling target. With my service rifle legal 4x scope, I've posted scores 199 of a high, and 192 of a low. That 192 was over 5000 rounds on the barrel.

Put a 12x scope and bipod I would expect 17 x cleans. this game is to wet the appetite of a new shooter. Anyone building a gun just for this class in a 6 mm, 6.5 whatever may get a couple eye rolls.

 

[eric32]

If that is the case i would assume after the provisional time period of however many years. The target will be a fclass center 1/2 MOA to remedy the high x count.

Bipod will still be a harris style. not like the f-tr bipods used with a super wide stance .

 

[BobLor]

If that is the case i would assume after the provisional time period of however many years. The target will be a fclass center 1/2 MOA to remedy the high x count.

Bipod will still be a harris style. not like the f-tr bipods used with a super wide stance .

This Fall I shot NRA Mid Range Tactical class on the Silver Mountain Electronic Targets at 600 yards using the F class target, but scoring it as if it were the standard NRA 600 yd. Mid Range Target. I used two rifles, the first one was a .223 AR with a Versa Pod bipod and a bean bag for a rear bag, and a Night Force scope set at 12x. This rifle with 77 gr bullets is a very good shooter and I cleaned the Standard target with 9X. I also am a Match Director at another range, so from that point of view, I would say, yes NRA Mid Range Tactical should be shot on the F class target, just to cut down on the ties. However,I would say shoot it on the standard target for a while so as not to not discourage shooters new to competitive shooting.

The second rifle I shot was a AR10 in .308 Win. with a Harris bipod, the same bean bag rear bag and a Nikon M-308 scope set at 12x. Again the aiming target was the 600 yd Fclass Target but scored as if it were a standard NRA 600 yard mid range target. The score this time was a 197-11x, the bullet used was a 168 Nosler CC. Again I would say start out with the standard mid range targets, but expect to use the F class target soon after this class of competition becomes official. The range I shot on only allowed magazines to be loaded with 10 rounds which was fine. In fact I liked the idea that I had to change magazines. This type of match was a lot of fun and I can see it catching on if the Match Directors promote it.

The weather for both matches was partly cloudy with very light wind from 8 O'clock. Temp. in the high 60's F.

My experience is High Power competition since 1976 and F tr competition since 2004. And I am a member of the Michigan F tr Team.
bobL.

 

[eric32]

Did you feel a hinderance shooting the AR10 308win vs AR15 223rem at 600yards?

I asking since i want to build my frist AR style rifle.

What was cause of the points loss on the second match vs the frist?

 

[mac86951]

Did you feel a hinderance shooting the AR10 308win vs AR15 223rem at 600yards?

I asking since i want to build my frist AR style rifle.

What was cause of the points loss on the second match vs the frist?

Eric, I don't want to hijack the thread; sent you a PM on building first AR.

I've been shooting Zia R&P club's F-AR15 class for some time, using a 20" 223 with mag fed restriction. A 200 is not to hard on high-power target even with mag fed ammo at 600y; 20-X a different story. The F-class target; however, makes it tricky to not drop a few points to a 9 or 8 in shifting wind conditions.

For ballistic info; my 20" 1:7 barrel is sending the 77smk at 2650; (wylde chamber). I'm transitioning over to a 1:9 with standard 223 chamber which really likes the Berger 70VLD.

Being provisional; the biggest future rule effect would be the mag fed ammo. Given a sled I'd be running 80s for sure; but I can see how mag fed would be a pain for managing the slow fire high-power match.

Either way, I would hope to get more shooters to the line; but at least locally that hasn't been the case.

-Mac

 

[Albany Mountain]

I hadn't noticed this division until you mentioned it. Reading the rules, I'd like to ask another question. Rules mention the magazine and say a sled is not allowed. Does this mean load up a magazine or single load?

The new rules specify nothing about rounds loaded into the magazine, just that a standard 10-20-30 round magazine must be in the gun. (Magazine – Standard 10 round, 20 round or 30 round magazines must be used. Reduced capacity magazines and “sleds” are prohibited. Magazine may not be used for support and may not touch the ground during firing or recoil. See Rule 5.2)

Match rules specify that all loading is single fed, (10.1.6 Loading in Slow Fire—In all slow fire events, the rifle will be loaded with only one cartridge at a time. The cartridge shall be inserted in
the magazine or chamber only when the rifle is pointed down range. Resting a loaded rifle on a shooting stool or on the foot, is prohibited. (See Rule 10.1.3).

So loading a magazine with more than one round is not allowed and one does not need to load cartridges to mag length as you can load directly into the chamber.

 

[XTR]

I can see that viewpoint from folks who shoot mainly at Oak Ridge. But there are a lot of still days in E Texas and along the Gulf coast (Palo Alto, etc.) Yes, there are days when the guys shooting .223s wish for more, but there are a lot of days when they don't.

I'm not sure the guys gaming it with custom ARs in middle calibers are going to dampen the enthusiasm of the guys showing up to practice and improve with their (more or less) factory ARs. When their skills reach the limit of what a given AR can do, they may get a new upper receiver, or they may move along to another AR centered discipline to build their skills in another area.

But there are a lot of AR owners out there and a lot of rifles already in safes that will allow their shooters to stretch their legs and learn a lot shooting Mid-Range High Power. You don't need to win to have fun and grow in your skills.

Getting ARs sufficiently accurate to shoot that first 200-20X at 600 yards will not be an easy trick. The National matches may quickly turn into X count contests for the equipment gamers, but the local matches are likely to have more modest scores for most shooters.

Please don't lose the context of my comments. As a get people out to shoot class I think the only real miss is the 12x limit for the reasons states above. My comments address some of the shortcomings of the class as a recognized competitive class.

Keep in mind that if this becomes a real class the nationals will be at Camp Perry not at Palo. Perry was the first place I ever dialed over 6 minutes at 1000. At the mid range nationals at Perry in 2014 we had to cancel matches one day because we couldn't keep the targets in the frames on Rodriguez, and the guys who are willing to travel to a national championship will darned well use everything not prohibited by the rules to improve their chance to win. That's what competition is.

 

[BobLor]

Did you feel a hinderance shooting the AR10 308win vs AR15 223rem at 600yards?

I asking since i want to build my frist AR style rifle.

What was cause of the points loss on the second match vs the frist?

The .223 AR was very familiar to me and I had developed a pretty good load for it and it has a very good Geissele trigger in it. The .308 AR was new to me and I had only shot some factory ammo, 1.5-2 MOA and my hand loads of 41.5gr 4895 and a 168 gr bullet at Magazine length which gave me a 3/4 MOA load at 100yds. I used my hand loads at the match and have not yet tried to refine other loads. The .308 AR has a Rock River trigger which is good but not as smooth as the Geissle. Scopes both preformed fine. So that was the difference in the rifles. Now I did notice more recoil as expected from the .308. But I expect the real difference as to why I dropped some points comes down to me making a rifle handling mistake on a few shots. The weather was too good for the wind to have made much difference.
The match was fun and if a shooter really wanted to be top line competitive, I would consider shooting the AR in a 6mm or 6.5 mm caliber.
As for not using a SLED or single loading, I think the intent of the magazine rule is to shoot the rifle from a loaded magazine, with magazine length loaded ammunition. And in this case I liked using a 20 Round magazine as it let me shoot in a lower position, where as a 30 round mag would have rested on the ground, which would have been against the rules.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

Please don't lose the context of my comments. As a get people out to shoot class I think the only real miss is the 12x limit for the reasons states above. My comments address some of the shortcomings of the class as a recognized competitive class.

Keep in mind that if this becomes a real class the nationals will be at Camp Perry not at Palo. Perry was the first place I ever dialed over 6 minutes at 1000. At the mid range nationals at Perry in 2014 we had to cancel matches one day because we couldn't keep the targets in the frames on Rodriguez, and the guys who are willing to travel to a national championship will darned well use everything not prohibited by the rules to improve their chance to win. That's what competition is.

I greatly appreciate your perspective. It is valuable to consider how things will play out at the highest levels and at nationals. As you have noticed, I like to provide some balance with the view from the more local level.

I agree. The 12X upper limit on scopes is unfortunate. My buddies and I have a number of scopes already that top out at 14-16X. Anyone know if match directors will allow them to be taped at 12X? The 9-12X scopes we have do not have nearly the elevation adjustment range (25mm tubes) or adjustable parallax. It's not the upper end magnification that is the real issue, it's the tactical features that tend to be absent from many scopes in the 9-12X magnification range.

As has been noted, it does not make sense to invest in new equipment for a provisional set of rules that will probably change.

 

[boltman13]

We have had a few tactical shooters at our Mid Range matches most with 223's one with a 308. They are unable to compete at the same level score wise as sling or F Class. Most of that is due to newness to shooting at 600 yds. and dealing with conditions. They still had fun and came back. Next year I plan to shoot at least one match with my XC Match Rifle in this class to see how I like it. My rifle is White Oak 223 upper with 20" barrel 1:8 twist, M4 type adjustable buttstock, Weaver 4X12 AO scope, Harris type bipod, 20 round GI mag. My load will be either Hornady 75 gr BTHP or Sierra 77 gr BTHP at max mag length. It's a little tricky to single load but doable. On a different note I am the match director for HP at my home range and it is failing. I may have a tactical match similar to NRA Mid Range Tactical at 200 yds. reduced to see if that will improve participation.

 

[mattt]

Time to get the National Match mini 14 20" out of storage

 

[Berger.Fan222]

On a different note I am the match director for HP at my home range and it is failing. I may have a tactical match similar to NRA Mid Range Tactical at 200 yds. reduced to see if that will improve participation.

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/th...-shoot-spreadsheet-rev-20-12-24-2015.3787129/

If I were starting a new match, I would focus on F-Class, maybe include AR Tactical, and not worry too much about the other High Power disciplines. I'd focus on growth areas.

Get a link in the where to shoot spreadsheet and make a mention here before each match. If possible, I'd also get an email list from nearby matches and send announcements to them also. The match directors may not share their email lists, but you can often get them from attendees who end up with everyone's email address on bulk emails.

 

[Erud]

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/th...-shoot-spreadsheet-rev-20-12-24-2015.3787129/

If I were starting a new match, I would focus on F-Class, maybe include AR Tactical, and not worry too much about the other High Power disciplines. I'd focus on growth areas.

Get a link in the where to shoot spreadsheet and make a mention here before each match. If possible, I'd also get an email list from nearby matches and send announcements to them also. The match directors may not share their email lists, but you can often get them from attendees who end up with everyone's email address on bulk emails.

So you'd be willing to put up sling targets for guys to shoot AR Tactical class, but not invite sling shooters?

 

[Berger.Fan222]

So you'd be willing to put up sling targets for guys to shoot AR Tactical class, but not invite sling shooters?

It depends on how much help I have and whether the help provides the ability to properly officiate those events according to the established rules. I don't think any match director should plan events that cannot be properly officiated. There is a lot more to it than "hanging targets." A lot of facilities have separated their F-Class matches from the traditional high power disciplines. Since AR Tactical is a new and rapidly growing discipline, I expect there would be a lot of demand. But being new, there would likely also be some grace during the provisional period as directors come up the learning curve to support it.

I expect in most places there will be much more demand and growth for F-Class and Tactical AR than for the traditional high power classes. If demand were to emerge, I think a match director focused on F-Class and Tactical AR would need help from more experienced shooters, or would do well to leave those disciplines to directors experienced with them. "Mission creep" can torpedo lots of good ideas that depend on volunteer labor when the volunteers lack the required experience to carry out the added mission elements.