After reviewing the whole thread, I see Vaughn, Newick, Walker, and Donaldson discussed. Who the hell is Mr. Gosnell? No idea what point you are trying to make.
Custom Actions - How Do They Enhance Accuracy?
- Thread starter Phil3
- Start date
I am sure you know this, but shooting a small group on occasion is not what I consider "accurate". It is shooting small in the aggregate that deserves the accuracy label.
TB's first BR match was contested with a factory rifle. His first year of competition he used a trued and sleeved XP action. He went custom in his 2nd year, and has been using customs exclusively ever since. Consider that TB did not have a lot of "funds" in the early days of comp, and custom actions in 1980 were far and few between ....and expensive.
Yet, he valued the custom gave him an accuracy edge very early on.
Don't forget, he has used right bolt, right port exclusively from day one....and it would not have been a deterrent for switching back to a trued factory action.
The man has developed a science of evaluating barrels within a minimal amount of rounds fired. One would think he has the same ability to evaluate actions.
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Only seen him two times . He was always friendly. Bob went to his personal school and I held Bob with long range .
His edge is his skill not anything to do with actions . Another neighbor Larry Costa if it was all about actions he wouldn't have that many barrels Larry
Some of you guys need to take a deep breath and let your blood pressure go down a bit before you blow a gasket. I have no idea who Mr Gosnell is but I'm sure his accomplishments are fantastic.
We should all keep in mind that this is a game, not life and death. We all have our opinions and just because some of us don't think F Class is "precision" shooting, doesn't mean you can't disagree. For my part 1/2 MOA is great for prairie dogs, but it would'nt get me anywhere in MY GAME. What you think is great in yours is fine. Same thing with the custom vs factory action discussion. If you can do what you believe is worthwhile with a lower quality action. Go for it. If I want to shoot short range score matches or registered short range group matches and would like to be competitive now and then, I'll have to invest in the best, not off the shelf factory parts. That's just the way it is. Long range just isn't interesting to me. As Townsend Whelen said "only accurate guns are interesting". ....Sorry, couldn't help myself
Rick
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ttfreestyle
Silver $$ Contributor
I took my better than 1/2 moa F class gun to a UBR match at the first of this year. This gun has shot cleans in mid range f class and did well in this match,but now I own 1 rem br gun for modified which only allow factory actions and 2 custom br guns as I saw right away my f class gun was not gonna cut it in short range br. It's just two different games and takes different tools to get the job done. Both are fun games and neither is easy to win at. For me it will be customs from now on unless they are prohibited in the class I am shooting, they are the smart money in my opinion.
Entertaining read here. I will ruffle everyones feathers. I quite simply the custom actions (or anything custom/refined in a given discipline) simple does one thing better. Eliminates to a better degree the physical human interaction needed to accomplish the required task. In the shooting sports, benchrest shooting takes this to the most extreme. Usually the only thing touching the rifle when it is fired is the finger on the trigger (some day someone will master like pole magnets on the trigger and finger to over come the 1oz break without touching the rifle). Custom actions require less human "forces" acting on the rifle to reload and with custom rests and stocks the rifle will not move from point of aim and not needed to be aimed again. This allows the gun to be reloaded and shot in quite a rapid manner that has been found to be best way to beat the second uncontrollable variable in shooting -- mother natures wind. Sam Hall shows this point very well in his video (on this site) where he is evaluating the SEB NEO max rest. At 600 yards he shoots one group adjusting the joy stick aiming between shots and shoot a nice group but mentions the wind. He then shots a second group using the "benchrest running technique" where he fires 5 shots very quickly. If you watch closely he is very smooth and methodical; he does not touch the rests; does not have to re-aim rifle; and has little to zero of his body touching the gun. The resulting group is about half the size of the first. He eliminated more of him self from the equation and shot faster to boot eliminating more of mother nature and the results improved. This narrows the benchrest game down to your mind vs mother nature and makes it physically easy but mentally hard. It's addictive as cocaine but more expensive. When the shooting dicipline requires more physical human interaction with the weapon, the Savage can compete very well.
The NBRSA varmint class rules require a manually operated firing mechanism.
I bolded in red part of your post. It makes clear how (in at least one way) a custom action can benefit a BR shooter. But it also makes clear why I don't do BR and why a custom action is less of a benefit to my shooting than it is for BR shooters. - Phil
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Boyd L.
Witty comment under development
Some interesting hyperbole and research references in this thread, since hyperbole and hard data don't often mix.
It would seem that a meta-analysis of a cross section of sanctioned event equipment lists, along with placement results would give a research based answer to the OP. Perhaps someone with a real point to make could find time to include this in their next doctoral research program.
It would seem that a meta-analysis of a cross section of sanctioned event equipment lists, along with placement results would give a research based answer to the OP. Perhaps someone with a real point to make could find time to include this in their next doctoral research program.
Custom Actions - How Do They Enhance Accuracy?
I think this is intimately related to taming all the harmonic chaos that occurs when you unleash a 50- 60,000 lb/sq inch explosion in the chamber.The barrel whips up and down. Waves of expansion and contraction run up and down the barrel at the speed of sound in steel. The bullet being spun induces torque to the gun.
Accuracy requires making the harmonics reproducible.The better everything fits together, the more likely the bullet can get out the barrel at the exact same point in the barrel whip cycle , and the same positioning of the waves of expansion and contraction which will affect dispersion.
Statistically there will be a better chance of creating uniform harmonics in the action which mates all it's parts together straight and square with maximal uniform contact.A good trued action can be better than a given custom.
If one were to take three guns; 1. with a box stock unbedded action with an unfloated barrel
2. with a trued action bedded in a good stock with a free floated barrel
3. a custom action bedded in a good stock with a free floated barrel
If you then get your gunsmith to spin up a theoretically excellent barrel for each. My experience is ,based on 5 trued Remingtons, 2 Pandas,2 Vipers, and a Grizzly II, that I am more likely to get that gun shooting tiny groups with the customs.Admittedly, all other factors are not equal.
Mathematically I see it as much like predicting the weather.Factors are complex and interplay in multiple ways such that no one can pick up several actions and barrels which are ostensibly equal and predict reliably which combination will shoot best all match long.Since costs tend to equal out as you pay a smith to check and correct the many parts of an action that come into play, to me , it makes best sense to go with a custom.There are very many more "factory" actions out there, and statistically some are going to shoot very well.When I close the bolt on my Viper drop port it has a harmonic ring to it that makes me smile.It may ,at times ,just relate to confidence,but that confidence does enhance my accuracy and enjoyment.
I think this is intimately related to taming all the harmonic chaos that occurs when you unleash a 50- 60,000 lb/sq inch explosion in the chamber.The barrel whips up and down. Waves of expansion and contraction run up and down the barrel at the speed of sound in steel. The bullet being spun induces torque to the gun.
Accuracy requires making the harmonics reproducible.The better everything fits together, the more likely the bullet can get out the barrel at the exact same point in the barrel whip cycle , and the same positioning of the waves of expansion and contraction which will affect dispersion.
Statistically there will be a better chance of creating uniform harmonics in the action which mates all it's parts together straight and square with maximal uniform contact.A good trued action can be better than a given custom.
If one were to take three guns; 1. with a box stock unbedded action with an unfloated barrel
2. with a trued action bedded in a good stock with a free floated barrel
3. a custom action bedded in a good stock with a free floated barrel
If you then get your gunsmith to spin up a theoretically excellent barrel for each. My experience is ,based on 5 trued Remingtons, 2 Pandas,2 Vipers, and a Grizzly II, that I am more likely to get that gun shooting tiny groups with the customs.Admittedly, all other factors are not equal.
Mathematically I see it as much like predicting the weather.Factors are complex and interplay in multiple ways such that no one can pick up several actions and barrels which are ostensibly equal and predict reliably which combination will shoot best all match long.Since costs tend to equal out as you pay a smith to check and correct the many parts of an action that come into play, to me , it makes best sense to go with a custom.There are very many more "factory" actions out there, and statistically some are going to shoot very well.When I close the bolt on my Viper drop port it has a harmonic ring to it that makes me smile.It may ,at times ,just relate to confidence,but that confidence does enhance my accuracy and enjoyment.
memilanuk
Gold $$ Contributor
...and if you think 1/2 moa is going to get you in the winner's circle at the national championship level in F-class, then you really have no idea what you're talking about - and would perhaps be best off not denigrating other sports that you don't actually compete in.
Like I said, take a deep breath.........I only referred to a previous poster who was bragging about his 5" group @ 1000 yards. I did not "denigrate" anyone's preferred sport. I only referred to facts. Short range benchrest rifles are the most accurate in the world. You can believe your Savage is equal if you wish. I could not care less what you think or believe. Some people believe the world is flat and that Hillary Clinton will make a great President. This thread is stuffed with people commenting on things they know absolutely nothing about, why pick on me? If we are limited to posting only thing we know, the threads wouldn't be nearly as funny and would be much shorter
Rick
memilanuk
Gold $$ Contributor
As I recall, he (VA Jim) wasn't 'bragging about his 5" group @ 1000 yards', he said that he had won the national championship in F/TR with his Savage action. Which was a statement of fact. See post #97 to jog your memory.
Yeah, you pretty much did.
You can attempt to weasel your way around it, but I'm not sure how else you can interpret that line.
I saw it as a brag, so what? If I won a national championship, I would brag a little too. Like I said, I'm just not impressed with a 1/2 MOA group....period. If you are, great. Do I need to repeat that? 1/2 MOA DOES NOT IMPRESS ME!!!! What I said was, F Class doesn't impress me. I'm sure VA Jim is as good as it gets. That's not denigrating the sport. It is what it is.
Why would you even care what I think anyway? you don't even know me. I damn sure don't care what you think.
Rick
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Raythemanroe
Bullet Whisperer
If someone beats accomplished shooters for a championship, I would say that is impressive.. Could Babe Ruth been better had he not drank and partied all the time? I do follow these "Savage" guys, when they do go full custom they don't usually go back... trigger and fire control is gonna show on paper, so is overall concentricity.. What does the OP see anyone's action doing?
Ray
Ray
I am the OP, and in that post, I bolded the following.
"...What design attributes does the custom offer over a Savage that will allow the custom to print tighter groups? I am NOT talking about ease of operation. I concede the trigger is a plus for the custom. I am talking about both actions, cocked, loaded, locked down, same barrel (switched if possible), and fired. Is there something in the custom action that will steer that bullet to the target more accurately than a Savage...?
I just want to know HOW "overall concentricity" affects accuracy. Not an unproven theory, idea, or speculation, but evidence of exactly what happens. That info may not be available, and if not, then OK.
Phil
"...What design attributes does the custom offer over a Savage that will allow the custom to print tighter groups? I am NOT talking about ease of operation. I concede the trigger is a plus for the custom. I am talking about both actions, cocked, loaded, locked down, same barrel (switched if possible), and fired. Is there something in the custom action that will steer that bullet to the target more accurately than a Savage...?
I just want to know HOW "overall concentricity" affects accuracy. Not an unproven theory, idea, or speculation, but evidence of exactly what happens. That info may not be available, and if not, then OK.
Phil
Raythemanroe
Bullet Whisperer
"Chasing a runout problem I got it, and fixed it. Pays to be a machinist 
i spun a fresh fired case on a sinclair concentricity gage. I thought odd, why is the case head " crooked" ( in laymans terms" the rest of the case is maybe .0002 tenths run out to itself. The head, .000-.013. Strange you ask? Well i tear the gun down. I get the face of the action, threads, and bolt race way indicated to each other to .0015. Not too bad!!! So i hit the face of lug and zero one side, rotate to check the other side aaannnnd .0155!! This would explain some broken bolt head pins ive heard about. So I true it up, reassemble and headspace. Fire five rounds and what do ya know, straight cases. I get the floating bolt head but come on savage indicate your shit in dont be lazy!!!!"
This is a post in another thread by the OP of that thread, I don't read these things with good custom actions..
Trigger, Fire control, concentricity, extraction, overall function, this all adds up to better accuracy.. What more do you need? Yes you can blueprint a Savage, replace the barrel and put a almost good enough trigger on it, you still end up with a gun that lacks in fire control, functionality and the trigger department..
Ray
i spun a fresh fired case on a sinclair concentricity gage. I thought odd, why is the case head " crooked" ( in laymans terms" the rest of the case is maybe .0002 tenths run out to itself. The head, .000-.013. Strange you ask? Well i tear the gun down. I get the face of the action, threads, and bolt race way indicated to each other to .0015. Not too bad!!! So i hit the face of lug and zero one side, rotate to check the other side aaannnnd .0155!! This would explain some broken bolt head pins ive heard about. So I true it up, reassemble and headspace. Fire five rounds and what do ya know, straight cases. I get the floating bolt head but come on savage indicate your shit in dont be lazy!!!!"This is a post in another thread by the OP of that thread, I don't read these things with good custom actions..
Trigger, Fire control, concentricity, extraction, overall function, this all adds up to better accuracy.. What more do you need? Yes you can blueprint a Savage, replace the barrel and put a almost good enough trigger on it, you still end up with a gun that lacks in fire control, functionality and the trigger department..
Ray
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dcali
Bullet Maker
As others have said earlier, there is a great deal of experimental work described in Harold Vaughn's book old book, Rifle Accuracy Facts, which is unfortunately out of print (although I hear it may be reprinted soon). Long story short, any asymmetry of stiffness in the action (or the rifle for that matter) is a driver of barrel vibration. The details and experimental descriptions are in the book. Well worth a read if you can find a copy.
You can think of two columns each with a heavy weight on top. One is perfectly cylindrical - it will compress straight down. The other has a chunk cut out of the side - it will tend to bend from the load of the weight. Same basic principle applies to rifle actions when they are fired. If the action tends to bend, that tends to whip the barrel, which is what drives the vibrations we don't want. Vaughn showed that something as simple as an asymmetrical gas vent had a measurable impact on barrel vibrations.
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