I wonder about causation. I am not a scientist, but just why did customs become dominant? As a result of measurable results on-target? Because shooters just figured if it was custom, it must shoot better? Because other top shooters went that route (for possibly no valid reason...or not), and others followed. I am reminded of a famous winning motorcycle Gran Prix rider who takes his foot off the foot peg before dragging his knee around the corner. No one knew why he did it, but sure enough, other competitors started doing it, and they admitted they only did because the winner did it, and it must be good. Just what is truth behind why shooters went to customs? Because they saw real on-target improvement that could be directly attributable to a custom action? Or...?
Custom Actions - How Do They Enhance Accuracy?
- Thread starter Phil3
- Start date
I wonder about causation. I am not a scientist, but just why did customs become dominant? As a result of measurable results on-target? Because shooters just figured if it was custom, it must shoot better? Because other top shooters went that route (for possibly no valid reason...or not), and others followed. I am reminded of a famous winning motorcycle Gran Prix rider who takes his foot off the foot peg before dragging his knee around the corner. No one knew why he did it, but sure enough, other competitors started doing it, and they admitted they only did because the winner did it, and it must be good. Just what is truth behind why shooters went to customs? Because they saw real on-target improvement that could be directly attributable to a custom action? Or...?
The difference I see savage hold their firing pin from the side . So the release is 90 degrees from the lugs . Is it better ? Larry
Phil3,
After weeding through the chaff of this thread, only Toby and Alex hit on what I think differentiates a custom from stock. Barrel whip/vibration/harmonics. While yes, a custom may be made from better or stiffer metal, smoother to operate, more consistent ingition, etc., the perfectly square and perpendicular faces of a custom action, when properly mated to a square and true barrel and chamber, will result in more consistent and repeatable harmonics when a 60000 psi explosion starts shaking things up. With everything as close to zero tolerance as possible, the barrel will be pointing in the same direction every time. If the face of the action is off one degree to the left, the top lug is off one degree, the bolt face is a degree off in another direction, the barrel harmonics will be different for every shot, with the muzzle whipping around in five different directions for a five shot group. The custom action controls these effects the best, allowing for the potential for the best accuracy, followed by a trued factory action, followed by a stock action. While a lot of stock actions will shoot well, the tolerance stack there does not lend itself to the greatest accuracy potential. More than my 2 cents, but I needed to vent
Makes sense. I wonder how much of an effect on target, the improved tolerances of the custom provide. Or, as another poster said, the sectional dimensions vs a stock factory action. Sounds like I really need to lay my hands on the Vaughn book.
To be clear, I really like customs for their workmanship and operational feel. And of course, any improved accuracy is welcome, and only wanted to know HOW an action could deliver that improvement. The sectional modulus makes sense, especially with a beefy heavy barrel hanging off the action. And I understand the potential consequences of some misalignments. What is not available is a quantifiable effect on the group size. Would be an interesting set of experiments, and have a half a mind to try it. My work place is full of Phd level researchers and scientists and they could help me develop proper testing models and processes.
Thank you.
Phil
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Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
Actual testing like your after is time consuming and expensive. Anyone who has the skill to perform that test and actually come up with good data most likely would have no desire to do so. Because even if a Savage didnt give up anything in the accuracy department it has too many other limiting factors that make it undesirable for Benchrest. And if we are talking the limits of accuracy we are talking Benchrest.
It does. Read Vaughn. It even matters where, how many (symmetry), and how large the gas vent holes in the action are. 60+Kpsi generates a lot of force, and moves a lot of metal.
At the 2015 Super Shoot a difference of less than .030 separated 1st and 10th place in the 2-gun (i.e., the agg of 20 5-shot groups). Small differences in action quality matter at this level of the sport, although nobody is going to tell you that their action put them at the top of the standings. If you don't care to shoot the smallest possible groups, or improve your benchrest shooting most effectively, then you can save a few bucks in the short run.
Definitely - WEIGHT . Larry
Read Vaughn.
It is perfectly clear if you read Vaughn.
No need to repeat Vaughn's work. Just read the book. [And it's PhD. I've got one of those, too.]
MAGNETISCH
Chrysler owned Mercedes for awhile.While we're at it: Why is a Mercedes better than a Chrysler? Cause it's made better.
There goes that thought . Larry
I am not a researcher or scientist, but my working in such environments has made very clear to me what goes into such experimental efforts and the cost. If you are talking of limiting factors with a Savage for competition, I don't disagree, if we are referring to operational speed, perfect scope rail mounting surfaces, etc.
I have no interest in BR. Nor am I interested in the ultimate limits of accuracy. But, if I try to hit something at 1000 yards, even if off a bipod and light rear bag, I would like all the help I can get, and if a custom action helps accuracy to a measurable degree, then great, I will use that and appreciate the fine workmanship and operation as well.
I recognize a BR gun will be necessary for testing the effect of the action on accuracy and done in a controlled environment.
Bottom line, I want to know if a custom really helps accuracy and by how much, proven by quantifiable evidence that can be directly attributable to some feature(s) of the custom. Some answers here provide technical reasons why a custom could or should shoot better, but we still do not know (that I can see), through controlled testing, if it actually will (shoot better).
I checked your web and Facebook page...you do beautiful work. Superb looking stuff. Wish I could that...
Phil
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Speak for yourself. We DO know. YOU just haven't read (or haven't been convinced by) the relevant material (e.g., Vaughn). Some of the most compelling data were even posted in this thread.
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/th...enhance-accuracy.3908616/page-2#post-36823840
I am a professional scientist, I have read the relevant literature, and it's very clear (from Vaughn's extensive research) that action stiffness, symmetry, and correct geometry all matter for accuracy as measured by aggregate group size (which is itself a fairly poor descriptor compared to mean radius or radial standard deviation, but that's a separate discussion).
But if you want to try to make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t, it's a (relatively) free country.
Phil
I can tell you I worked with a barrel block gun. Using a small shank repeater action and a
If that is a fact how can chromoly Or aluminum or stainless or titiamum action all shoot the same Vibrations and stiffness is totally different . The stiffness of the action change barrel and stock vibrations along with any thing that touches the gun adding nothing but a tuner I can change the point of impact left and right up and down And find a tune. His theory is wrong . or paper shows it is We have folders of data showing the results showing the results But nobody can explained how and why . Larry
joshb
Gold $$ Contributor
Yeah, this is the tired old argument that always comes up....the lemming theory. By extension, the actual verifiable results of competition in hunter class before and after the custom rule can be applied to any form of short range registered Benchrest competition. IF the enhanced factory guns where actually capable of taking a top shooter to the top of the results board, then WHERE ARE THEY? As in any form of competition, there are always some who delight in competing with the minimalist concept of keeping it simple at the least cost by using "underdog" equipment - just to prove a point....yet virtually NO ONE shows up at tournaments, i.e. States, Regionals, or Nationals with one- much less competes with one.
For all you hot shots who think you can be a player with non-customs come out to matches and give it your best shot......IF you do well, then attend a tournament and if you do well there....you'll be the buzz of all the internet shooting chat rooms for months.... you will be a Daily Bulletin feature, you'll be a hero to the masses.....and maybe get sponsored by the action manufacturer.
FWIW, I've BTDT...I have 4 BR rigs, 2 customs and 2 based on Remington 700's (vey much enhanced). In 15 years of competition the customs are the only guns that have given me a win ...or at least put me at the top tier.....and I still campaign with all of them ...just to "try and prove the non-custom can compete"....well it hasn't happened yet and shows no signs of ever happening......but I'll still keep trying ....in the interest of scientific study
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exactly and well said in the br accuracy world it comes down to equipment ,equipment ,equipment. yes you must be able to steer it but as I have said many times your not going to get a .1500 agg. out of a .2500 agg rifle. yep Mercedes owned Chrysler how about a Ferrari and a YugoYeah, this is the tired old argument that always comes up....the lemming theory. By extension, the actual verifiable results of competition in hunter class before and after the custom rule can be applied to any form of short range registered Benchrest competition. IF the enhanced factory guns where actually capable of taking a top shooter to the top of the results board, then WHERE ARE THEY? As in any form of competition, there are always some who delight in competing with the minimalist concept of keeping it simple at the least cost by using "underdog" equipment - just to prove a point....yet virtually NO ONE shows up at tournaments, i.e. States, Regionals, or Nationals with one- much less competes with one.
For all you hot shots who think you can be a player with non-customs come out to matches and give it your best shot......IF you do well, then attend a tournament and if you do well there....you'll be the buzz of all the internet shooting chat rooms for months.... you will be a Daily Bulletin feature, you'll be a hero to the masses.....and maybe get sponsored by the action manufacturer.
FWIW, I've BTDT...I have 4 BR rigs, 2 customs and 2 based on Remington 700's (vey much enhanced). In 15 years of competition the customs are the only guns that have given me a win ...or at least put me at the top tier.....and I still campaign with all of them ...just to "try and prove the non-custom can compete"....well it hasn't happened yet and shows no signs of ever happening......but I'll still keep trying ....in the interest of scientific study
dragman
Site $$ Sponsor
This is a very hard target to articulate in typing without speaking or looking at them in person. Here is what I can promise you I know for sure. I know some CHEAP CHEAP old guys who hate spending money when they don't have too, but they shoot customs because day in day out they will out perform (LOOK at the equipment list of almost any standings for BR)
I have had tuned and trued great Remingtons that would shoot under 1/4" at 100 yards I don't know if it's temp, atmospheric pressures, sun, rain, whatever but I have never had one that would shoot the same basic groups every time 10 times in a row 10 days in a row. some days it's in the .1's some days .2's some days .3's and every now and then in the .0's by all accounts that gun will shoot! and shoot well. I have customs that when you get it tuned and it shoots in the .1's or 2's it stays there at least 9 or 10 times unless something else changes it, barrel wear, fouling, different lot components, etc.
That is my personal experiences with probably over 80 different bench guns over they last 6-7 years with better than half of those guns being timed trued factory actions and maybe 25 or 30 being customs. the majority of the time at least 80% the customs have always been more consistent.
I don't need a book or someone else to tell me what they think because I have seen me do it. and I know what the results where when I tested them.
I have had tuned and trued great Remingtons that would shoot under 1/4" at 100 yards I don't know if it's temp, atmospheric pressures, sun, rain, whatever but I have never had one that would shoot the same basic groups every time 10 times in a row 10 days in a row. some days it's in the .1's some days .2's some days .3's and every now and then in the .0's by all accounts that gun will shoot! and shoot well. I have customs that when you get it tuned and it shoots in the .1's or 2's it stays there at least 9 or 10 times unless something else changes it, barrel wear, fouling, different lot components, etc.
That is my personal experiences with probably over 80 different bench guns over they last 6-7 years with better than half of those guns being timed trued factory actions and maybe 25 or 30 being customs. the majority of the time at least 80% the customs have always been more consistent.
I don't need a book or someone else to tell me what they think because I have seen me do it. and I know what the results where when I tested them.
How can I get my hands on some of that "titiamum?"
I believe that it is easier and much more likely to come up with a winning rifle using custom action. By the time you pay for all the enhancements to the standard factory action you come up just shy of the cost of a custom and at each operation of truing the action you have the opportunity to make a small mistake that will show up in the end result.
Anyone wanting to prove the theory wrong simply needs to brake into the winners circle consistently. If the trued factory action was competitive everyone would have to have one but sadly that is not the case.
All shooting sports have evolved over the years and equipment has been steadily improved on. Materials and methods have allowed actions to be made to tight tolerances that is not cost effective for the factories to replicate.
A true eye opener is reading "Yours Truly" by Harvie Donaldson. In the early days of benchrest competition they took advantage of every enhancement they could to improve accuracy and had some surprising results using Mauser actions and shooting from wooden benches with a simple sand bag set up. Remington had their hay day and Mike Walker played a major part in enhancing their action for competition. Things are far and away ahead of the beginnings of competition and equipment has evolved at a surprising rate. One thing Savage did though is to wake up the big arms makers to the fact that factory actions could be made to perform better and cost effectively as well.
Joe
Anyone wanting to prove the theory wrong simply needs to brake into the winners circle consistently. If the trued factory action was competitive everyone would have to have one but sadly that is not the case.
All shooting sports have evolved over the years and equipment has been steadily improved on. Materials and methods have allowed actions to be made to tight tolerances that is not cost effective for the factories to replicate.
A true eye opener is reading "Yours Truly" by Harvie Donaldson. In the early days of benchrest competition they took advantage of every enhancement they could to improve accuracy and had some surprising results using Mauser actions and shooting from wooden benches with a simple sand bag set up. Remington had their hay day and Mike Walker played a major part in enhancing their action for competition. Things are far and away ahead of the beginnings of competition and equipment has evolved at a surprising rate. One thing Savage did though is to wake up the big arms makers to the fact that factory actions could be made to perform better and cost effectively as well.
Joe
The only time I saw a factory action shoot close to the customs is on a 1000 yard heavy gun. Then the barrel is glued in the block and that pretty much takes the action out except for feeding and ignition. Then the action still needs to be straight and have good ignition. I have seen poor ignition kill a long range gun. Matt
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