1000 yard IBS agg Match

[David 0306]

As most already know a few IBS clubs have been evaluating the agg system in 1000 yard matches this year . To date vapor trail ,Harry Jones and Hawks Ridge (in a fun match) have all used the new agg system. With Vapor Trail using it in every match this year.
As we move forward I would like to get input from as many as possible on you thoughts of this type format as the long range comm. starts to meet concerning some these items . First let me say let's keep this positive as in no comments or suggestions are wrong they are the pieces we need in order to move forward . The number one item is how do we get 1000 yard Benchrest shooting numbers back up to at least the numbers of 3 to 4 years ago matches this year have seen attendance down by 20 or more shooters at some matches . You can pm me with thought ideas comments or post them here either way is fine with me just remember our goal is to build not tear down and we can do that if we open to sugestions as well as constructive criticism if need be . Thank in advance for your help
David Matthews
Member LRC

 

[Cool Tool]

As most already know a few IBS clubs have been evaluating the agg system in 1000 yard matches this year . To date vapor trail ,Harry Jones and Hawks Ridge (in a fun match) have all used the new agg system. With Vapor Trail using it in every match this year.
As we move forward I would like to get input from as many as possible on you thoughts of this type format as the long range comm. starts to meet concerning some these items . First let me say let's keep this positive as in no comments or suggestions are wrong they are the pieces we need in order to move forward . The number one item is how do we get 1000 yard Benchrest shooting numbers back up to at least the numbers of 3 to 4 years ago matches this year have seen attendance down by 20 or more shooters at some matches . You can pm me with thought ideas comments or post them here either way is fine with me just remember our goal is to build not tear down and we can do that if we open to sugestions as well as constructive criticism if need be . Thank in advance for your help
David Matthews
Member LRC

I think do to economy the relay shoot off aspect has outlived itself people have to drive so far to shoot an shoot 2 targets light an 2 targets heavy an go home because a lot of these shooters can not tune at the longer distance like a lot of the other shooters still learning the game a agg program would give them more trigger time at the longer distance the more experience shooters is going to win most of the time anyway that would give the least experience more trigger time to grow in to the winner circle with the more experienced.

 

[davidpatton]

I agree the agg matches may be the way to go. I think the way it is now creates a more level playing field considering conditions but from a participation stand point the more shooting is better. At least with the agg you get to shoot a little more, get a better understanding of how your equipment is working, and it really makes those long road trips a little more worth while. Nothing sucks more than riding six hours to get beat in your first relay and not get to shoot anymore for that match. Sometimes it hard to tell exactly what happened, was it your loads, did you miss the conditions, was it shooter error? With the agg and the extra trigger time it's easier to know overall how you measure up. Just the opinion of one small fish in a big pond

 

[Cool Tool]

I sure would love to see some response on the OP question for opinions on the 1000yd format on generating more shooters.

 

[Jason Boersma]

I like the agg format, it's better for everyone shooting and I think it's better for the sport. The shooter numbers are going down everywhere and people getting older has a little bit to do with that but I would like to know why most people that shoot 600 don't or won't shoot 1000yds.

 

[Terry]

The only time I shoot 1,000 agg's is at the NBRSA Nationals. Over 6 targets it works well.
Still it's hard to beat the relay with great conditions.

The shoot off helps take the conditions out of the match.

How did it work at the ranges that used it?

 

[Ga. Dawg]

Well, l must say I have been on the fence on this for a while, until...the ole Ga. Boy went to the World Open in mid July. This is by numbers the biggest 1000 yard match of the year-130 plus shooters. Now, this is where I really learned just how much conditions play into the game, agg wise. When a feller wins 3 of the 4 relays he shoots in and finishes 2nd in the other, all for group, then ends up 6th and 12th when it's agged out, I just don't get it. Another for instance, on the last relay of the event, an 18 inch group WON the relay. Now what chance did that shooter have in the aggs? Let me be the first to say, I appreciate the Long Range Committee tryin to improve the sport cause we all see the attendance suffering. I know David Matthews and I have talked for hours on different ideas and formats. I hope someone can find a solution, but personally, I honestly believe you have win your relay, shot in the same conditions and move to a shoot off. I can't swallow loosing to someone that shot say 2 hours earlier. I get the 600 yard agg format but the conditions at 1000 yards are more punishing. I hope I don't offend anyone- this is just my honest opinion.
Mike

 

[davidpatton]

Well, l must say I have been on the fence on this for a while, until...the ole Ga. Boy went to the World Open in mid July. This is by numbers the biggest 1000 yard match of the year-130 plus shooters. Now, this is where I really learned just how much conditions play into the game, agg wise. When a feller wins 3 of the 4 relays he shoots in and finishes 2nd in the other, all for group, then ends up 6th and 12th when it's agged out, I just don't get it. Another for instance, on the last relay of the event, an 18 inch group WON the relay. Now what chance did that shooter have in the aggs? Let me be the first to say, I appreciate the Long Range Committee tryin to improve the sport cause we all see the attendance suffering. I know David Matthews and I have talked for hours on different ideas and formats. I hope someone can find a solution, but personally, I honestly believe you have win your relay, shot in the same conditions and move to a shoot off. I can't swallow loosing to someone that shot say 2 hours earlier. I get the 600 yard agg format but the conditions at 1000 yards are more punishing. I hope I don't offend anyone- this is just my honest opinion.
Mike

Well said mike. Honestly I don't know if it's the format that keeps people away. This was my first year and I've realized it's a lot of work. Just the traveling alone is the worst part. They're aren't many young shooters involved but that may have to do with they fact that the matches are so far away. Obviously every city can't have a 1000 yard range but to be competitive in points you have to shoot a lot. For a North Carolina boy we have hawks ridge, West Virginia, and Georgia. It's hard to be competitive without running all over the country and that makes it tough. It's been a blast, and I've been lucky to be able to load up and travel with the Matthews crowd, but in the end no matter the format most young people don't really have the resources to travel and compete. I agree with your statement about the 18 inch group, conditions can kill an agg, unless you're on the "good" relay.

 

[David 0306]

Thanks for the PM's and replies guys and gals . All of your thoughts, statements and ideas have merit . We all seem to agree we want to grow our shooting discipline and if we could wave a magic wand we would do that . I will try my best to find one . I do believe as long as we keep working and throwing ideas out we will find a solution because this sport is full of very smart people. The key is to work together and try to find a solution will everyone be happy proably not can only hope for that . From what I have gotten so far is we have several that want to shoot more and have the winners decided in the same conditions and at the end of the day everyone has had a good time . Simple enough now just keep the wheels turning and I belive with some give and take we may make this work.

 

[savagedasher]

I don't shoot 1000 yd paper.
But if I did I wouldn't shoot where the realay winners didn't shoot off all at one time for the winner . Larry

 

[David 0306]

Quick question what is the number of benches that can be shot off of at your 1000 yard club or range

 

[bozo699]

We brought it up here and the majority wanted to do the shoot offs, so we never had the chance to test it out. I do hear from people (that don't come or aren't regulars), that wish we would shoot more rounds. Now the million dollar question, would they actually show up if we did?

Our regular, very competitive shooters are loving the fact that they get to go head to head for the win. It seems there is a tradeoff between fair, and trying to get more interest maybe. I say fair, basically because anyone who's competed at 1k knows good and well how mother nature can determine the winner in a hurry. In a perfect world we would have more benches than shooters, and we could have the best of both formats.

Our computer man did keep some statistics from the 2016 season. The results were an increase of .5" per every relay as the day goes on.I forget what he said about scores, but they went down along with the opening groups. It makes me wonder if we could or should maybe rotate instead of draw, if we were to put on an aggregate match? Maybe help eliminate, or reduce the chance, the draw determining the winners a bit less? Heck if I know, I really don't care personally, I'll be there regardless because it's what I love.


Tom

Well put my friend!...
Wayne

 

[dmoran]

Closest range to me is 5-hrs away. I do not want to travel that far or further to regular IBS-1000 matches and then win or loose by mother nature, like will happen more days then not using an aggregate format at 1000. The Shoot-Off format is the only regular match format I will travel to.
Exception: if the turnout is low where 1 relay is all that is needed (less people then benches), then an aggregate is fair and a smart choice.

For big matches, such as the 1000yd National's and World Opens, the "Relay Rank system" is a fairer way to hold them in my opinion. I personally would like to see the IBS-1000 National's format changed from the current "aggregate rank system" to the "relay rank system".

To me 1000-BR is about shooting the absolute smallest group and/or highest score possible, head to head. Not the most targets or who caught the best conditions in there relay.

My 2-Cents
Donovan

 

[birdog]

Well put Donovan. I agree completely.

 

[M.Stilley]

Well, I'm one of those new young guys. I enjoyed the one agg match I shot much more than the relay matches. I got to shoot more.
Here's how to get more new shooters:
Hold some sort of gateway/fun shoots. Maybe it's a different Sat, maybe it is just after the BR match. For example, after the BR match put 5 steel targets (groundhogs?) spread out from 500-1000 and competitors take one shot at each. 5$ a person, award prize money. That kind of engaging stuff will retain new shooters, IMO. They'll stick with BR, getting better at it, because they are having fun.

 

[johara1]

First aggs. are based on on luck of the draw on relay and bench. Second ranking is under a completely different scoring system. Points are only awarded for the first relay but not the second? Time and cost go up with aggs. Yearly aggs. done in 1000 yds only count on first relay shot on aggs but not on the second, if it doesn't count on the second why do it? Shoot off's are the only fair way at long range, and the fairest of any discipline it takes the luck of the conditions out of it. Drawing for benches and relays in the morning also the fairest also. When you see people coming in and putting their equipment on the benches for the first relay before the drawing, you know the computer hasn't generated it. James O'Hara

 

[DJSBRS]

I shoot both 1000 and 600 IBS. Participation appears to me to be dropping to me at both events. My thoughts about 1000 yard participation is that many feel they don't get enough bang for the buck or recognition (awards) even if it is a medallion or whatever for coming in second or third.

Traveling hours, meals, motel, registration and cost of components are the thoughts of justification for those not standing at the podium after the match and returning home.

We may want to look at acknowledging a second, and third place positions or whatever based on attendance for 1000 yards. Many 600 yard clubs does reward several additional awards such as ( small group or high score or closest to X along with more places based on attendance ) and their attendance flat out beats out the 1000 attendance.

I personally prefer shoot offs for your relay. I also think two day matches attract more traveling shooters to justify shared expenses. Random drawing for relays is generally suspected as not consistent among the shooters. The random drawings should be witnessed or actual drawing performed manually upon registration. This would establish a comfort level there is really a true playing field.

I agree with aggs for 600 but prefer relay shoot offs with more contenders for 1st, 2nd and 3rd place for the shoot off. Example, if there were 3 shooters in the shoot off for score, then award 1st, 2nd and 3rd among those shooters based on their final shoot off.

Just my .02¢ worth as well.

Hope to see you all at the Nationals!

DJ
DJ's Brass Service

 

[David 0306]

First aggs. are based on on luck of the draw on relay and bench. Second ranking is under a completely different scoring system. Points are only awarded for the first relay but not the second? Time and cost go up with aggs. Yearly aggs. done in 1000 yds only count on first relay shot on aggs but not on the second, if it doesn't count on the second why do it? Shoot off's are the only fair way at long range, and the fairest of any discipline it takes the luck of the conditions out of it. Drawing for benches and relays in the morning also the fairest also. When you see people coming in and putting their equipment on the benches for the first relay before the drawing, you know the computer hasn't generated it. James O'Hara

Thanks James for your comments just want to explain or try to explain a couple thing you brought up . First is the agg system that is in place right now does give points for the second target the .05 points in a normal match has been cut in half between the 2 targets. Second the reason the 1st target only counts in the yearly agg is so we would did not get away from the record format we currently have in place ie: shoot off targets dont count now. As always thanks again for you thought and comments .

 

[David 0306]

I shoot both 1000 and 600 IBS. Participation appears to me to be dropping to me at both events. My thoughts about 1000 yard participation is that many feel they don't get enough bang for the buck or recognition (awards) even if it is a medallion or whatever for coming in second or third.

Traveling hours, meals, motel, registration and cost of components are the thoughts of justification for those not standing at the podium after the match and returning home.

We may want to look at acknowledging a second, and third place positions or whatever based on attendance for 1000 yards. Many 600 yard clubs does reward several additional awards such as ( small group or high score or closest to X along with more places based on attendance ) and their attendance flat out beats out the 1000 attendance.

I personally prefer shoot offs for your relay. I also think two day matches attract more traveling shooters to justify shared expenses. Random drawing for relays is generally suspected as not consistent among the shooters. The random drawings should be witnessed or actual drawing performed manually upon registration. This would establish a comfort level there is really a true playing field.

I agree with aggs for 600 but prefer relay shoot offs with more contenders for 1st, 2nd and 3rd place for the shoot off. Example, if there were 3 shooters in the shoot off for score, then award 1st, 2nd and 3rd among those shooters based on their final shoot off.

Just my .02¢ worth as well.

Hope to see you all at the Nationals!

DJ
DJ's Brass Service

Thanks DJ I like you idea

 

[David 0306]

Well, I'm one of those new young guys. I enjoyed the one agg match I shot much more than the relay matches. I got to shoot more.
Here's how to get more new shooters:
Hold some sort of gateway/fun shoots. Maybe it's a different Sat, maybe it is just after the BR match. For example, after the BR match put 5 steel targets (groundhogs?) spread out from 500-1000 and competitors take one shot at each. 5$ a person, award prize money. That kind of engaging stuff will retain new shooters, IMO. They'll stick with BR, getting better at it, because they are having fun.

Good idea not sure how to pull it off yet but real good idea