1000 yard IBS agg Match

[johara1]

Thanks James for your comments just want to explain or try to explain a couple thing you brought up . First is the agg system that is in place right now does give points for the second target the .05 points in a normal match has been cut in half between the 2 targets. Second the reason the 1st target only counts in the yearly agg is so we would did not get away from the record format we currently have in place ie: shoot off targets dont count now. As always thanks again for you thought and comments .

David, .05 is for the relay win times the number in the relay and .03 is for the match win time the number entered in the match……. jim

 

[Cool Tool]

Well I have a feeling that if someone research the club agg for the year you would see the most veteran shooters in your top spots, there needs to be something constructive come available to the new shooters to get the attendance up a little at these matches or you are going to loose clubs because they can not survive on the current numbers it is not really big financial ordeal to make a lot of money it is a matter of being able to provide a place for the shooters that want to learn how to be competitive at a long range sport that is very challenging for both the veterans an the people still learning.

 

[johara1]

A fair way to do the agg. thing would be to have the relay winners go for the win in group and score and the rest shoot for second place….. jim

 

[johara1]

Well I have a feeling that if someone research the club agg for the year you would see the most veteran shooters in your top spots, there needs to be something constructive come available to the new shooters to get the attendance up a little at these matches or you are going to loose clubs because they can not survive on the current numbers it is not really big financial ordeal to make a lot of money it is a matter of being able to provide a place for the shooters that want to learn how to be competitive at a long range sport that is very challenging for both the veterans an the people still learning.

You will not get a lot of new people committed enough to do the work it takes to win. So the luck thing enters the picture. I watched many times as long as somebody's doing the work they will shoot.
Then if you can't buy it or have somebody do it for them they will disappear. Like myself, i can't see that good any more and i sure don't want to do all that work and travel and sit out in the heat to get beat. So all the changes are not going to change a thing, except to cheapen the things people did in the past. jim

 

[Dakota_Mike]

I think the reason more people like the agg format is that you get to shoot more and you know how many rounds you will need at a match.

I also think there may be merit in using the relay rank system in both 600 and 1000 as part of an agg format. It's just as easy in 600 to have conditions determine which relay the winner will come from. With the relay rank at least a dominate shooter that gets a bad relay condition would have a shot at second place for the day. (For group ranking use the group agg for first tie breaker and vice versa)

As the person who built the scoring program several of the ranges are using I can tell you that trying to build a universal program that works at multiple ranges and assigns points per relay is a royal pain. The overall used in 600 is much easier to account for and deal with. It would be nice if both the 600 and 1000 used the same rules, format and program. Mike

 

[savagedasher]

I have competed locally and regionally
Shooting archery and shot gun same with car racing. 50+ years . Watched the partition swing both ways .
Shooting sport Is drivin by Fun and money.
As it stands now money is the reason for the decline . Take longrange Weight being a factor To get lite is all about money . Stock action scope mounts is where the weight saving is . all money driven. Then on top of that shooting skills is not paramount .
The equipment that is needed you must be able to shoot fast . Money again . Learning and reloading is expensive also .
Without all the above you won't have fun .
I'm not complaining just trying information I have watched happen .
How many shoots do you go to and see a new shooter. And if you do does he keep coming back .
Trap shooting has been replace with sporting clays. Fun factor
Bench rest rim fire and longrange has Ben replaced with 3 gun and F class . For new shooters . Fun factor again .
If I was going to shoot long range I would never shoot a shoot where the winner normally determined by realay .
Just a suggestion make a 19#class without scope for weight hunting type stock and time required between shots .
Also a fun shoot gong ballon egg . At different yartage then the match . Best x can be added also . What it takes to get new shooters is old ones that offers help .
Larry

 

[Cool Tool]

A fair way to do the agg. thing would be to have the relay winners go for the win in group and score and the rest shoot for second place….. jim

A very good concept that's a good thought.

 

[David 0306]

David, .05 is for the relay win times the number in the relay and .03 is for the match win time the number entered in the match……. jim

David, .05 is for the relay win times the number in the relay and .03 is for the match win time the number entered in the match……. jim

Jim here is the rule for the agg
In Non- National aggregate matches for 1K SOY points, all shooters will shoot two Relays per class (Light or Heavy gun) with one target per relay. Each relay will be will be divided as evenly as possible with number of 12 being the goal of IBS shooters per relay. Each relay winner for group or score will be awarded .025 points per IBS shooter in their relay. The shooters with the highest Score and smallest Group aggregate from their two relays/targets will be the match winner and receive .03 points per IBS shooter in the match. Tie breakers per the rule book will be in effect.

World Records under the SOY Aggregate System:

All aggregate World Records shot under the new SOY aggregate system must come from the first Relay/Target per match. The second Relay/Target per match will not be considered for aggregate World Records.

Any single target World Records may be shot during either the first or second Relay/Target of an IBS registered and approved match.


Adopted by IBS Long Range Committee 2 February , 2016

 

[savagedasher]

On a positive note, I see things looking up for the future out here. Yes, we've lost some of the old guard, but we are seeing new faces the last few years. Alex has done a few builds for folks planning on attending in the future. Possibly as soon as next weekend for our championship, and definitely by next season.

Jim made on key point, and I agree. To be competitive, it is a bunch of work. It has to be an absolute passion for a person to be driven enough to come out and compete.

Before my time, the guys here started an 11lb. class. The whole point was to have folks come out with sendero type rifles, and compete against each other and not full blown bag guns. Well that since morphed into full blown lighter versions of 17lb guns. Looking forward, possibly a class that allows custom components, but maybe not slab style stocks? Maybe draw out some of the folks that want to try out their custom hunting/tactical rigs? And alow them to use bipods?

Just throwing ideas out there, we can all make time to visit in Georgia

Tom

Tom
I like the idea of a hunting tactical gun but it should also have limits . I think a black gun class could be a good choice also . Larry

 

[unkie716]

I will leave the format issue to the ruling authorities, but would like to comment on the participation part of the op. I am afraid times are changing and many of the changes are not going to promote growth in the sport of shooting. Travel, expense, etc. have all been mentioned, but truth is, us older shooters either are shooting or have elected to not be a competitive shooter, which leaves any growth to come from younger shooters, and statistics are not in our favor. For instance, golf is on the decline also because Millenials are not willing to obligate four hours to play a round of golf. Four hours = about the time involved to prep brass, maybe! Prep, development, travel, and match all require time that us shooters are willing to obligate because of our passion, but not sure how to sell this to others. I also see my son and two son in laws accepting responsibilities around the house that were never expected of me, equating to less free time for themselves. I guess that is why I did not start shooting until I was sixty plus. I'll shut up and listen. WWE

 

[dmoran]

^^^^ +1..... I see the same thing up here in my neck of the woods (make that plains.... lol)

 

[David 0306]

I will leave the format issue to the ruling authorities, but would like to comment on the participation part of the op. I am afraid times are changing and many of the changes are not going to promote growth in the sport of shooting. Travel, expense, etc. have all been mentioned, but truth is, us older shooters either are shooting or have elected to not be a competitive shooter, which leaves any growth to come from younger shooters, and statistics are not in our favor. For instance, golf is on the decline also because Millenials are not willing to obligate four hours to play a round of golf. Four hours = about the time involved to prep brass, maybe! Prep, development, travel, and match all require time that us shooters are willing to obligate because of our passion, but not sure how to sell this to others. I also see my son and two son in laws accepting responsibilities around the house that were never expected of me, equating to less free time for themselves. I guess that is why I did not start shooting until I was sixty plus. I'll shut up and listen. WWE

WWE I think you hit the nail on the head and it is going to be hard to get numbers back up and almost impossible to get back to hay day numbers . We have some new shooters that have came in this year and it's tough on them I know. It has to be fun in order for them to put in the time they want to shoot as much as feasibly possible and they will go where they get the most bang for there buck . It's not going to be a easy fix by no means .

 

[Dakota_Mike]

I agree with Tom that there should probably be a third hunting/tactical class. There are a bunch of guys that have money into PRS style rifles and just plain guys building long range hunting guns that we should be trying to get involved. They are the ones that are already interested about shooting long range and might not even know when/where the benchrest is available. I'm not sure where to put the limits but probably 25-32X max on scopes and mandatory folding bipods(not f-class type). Maybe a weight restriction of 17? so it could also shoot light gun if desired. I would also make this class so there are no DQ, just a penalty for a missed shot to try to keep them interested. Mike

 

[johara1]

David, Now that you changed the scoring system, you only get half for a relay win ? and a club that still uses the shoot offs gets.05 ? So anybody interested in shooter of the year will avoid these clubs using the aggs. It seems like one step forward and two back. Maybe be better to limit heavy to 5 shot groups and use the same format as 600 and throw out all the old records and start over completely. Jim

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I believe we will be adding a third class next year. It may only be on the club level, but I do see the IBS doing something. It will be to attract guys who have tactical, hunting, or even f-tr rifles. We were thinking of calling it "practical class". To me, the only rules I would like to see is, no flat bottom stocks, no coaxial rests or coaxial bipods, must single feed. The real advantage in a br rifle is the stability and tracking. Most of the hunting or tactical rifles are built with the same precision as a BR rifle. So the stock rule would force you to have to re-adjust every shot and single feed will slow you down a bit. I say let them shoot of bipods and even the ground if they want, so long as you have a referee so be able to see them. This may be a discussion for another thread?

 

[Ga. Dawg]

I believe we will be adding a third class next year. It may only be on the club level, but I do see the IBS doing something. It will be to attract guys who have tactical, hunting, or even f-tr rifles. We were thinking of calling it "practical class". To me, the only rules I would like to see is, no flat bottom stocks, no coaxial rests or coaxial bipods, must single feed. The real advantage in a br rifle is the stability and tracking. Most of the hunting or tactical rifles are built with the same precision as a BR rifle. So the stock rule would force you to have to re-adjust every shot and single feed will slow you down a bit. I say let them shoot of bipods and even the ground if they want, so long as you have a referee so be able to see them. This may be a discussion for another thread?

I think this an excellent idea. Free up the rules a little to include more shooters.
Mike

 

[gn1000]

Well I have shot the agg format and I think we will loose shooters not get more. I talked to one shooter that shot two 49s and won his relays but not the match. If he was in a shootoff I think he would have had a better chance of winning. With the people I talked to including myself we would like it to stay with shootoffs and like people have said try having a third class next year or giving something for second and third place. Again I think we will loose shooters not gain with the agg format. Gary

 

[Tom E]

I"m glad to see David trying to come up with a solution, the 1000 yard matches at our place are down in numbers, most new shooters come watch a 1000 and a 600 match , then start at 600, i believe they start there because it is a faster paced, more time at the bench match.
I have always included a factory class at our range, it is a starting point for a lot of shooters not willing to jump all in at first, many times after a few good finishes in the factory they are looking for custom guns. Andy Ferguson is one of our factory starts, i took him to his first nats in 2012 with his factory savage, Just to get experience look where that took off to.
This year we went from shooting factory both days to only shooting it Saturday, with a thought that this would get our long distance ibs travelers on the road early sunday, it seems to be good situation at the moment.
I also started a tactical/hunting class and shot them with the factory class, the rules are easy, must be shot off a bipod, this has generated interest, with new shooters as well as my regulars with nice custom hunting guns that want to test them out. The Tactical rifle crowd is huge and growing!

Im not going to voice an opinion either way on Agg vs. Shootoffs, whatever is decided is what we will shoot and enjoy there is trade offs on both sides.
I took a poll at our last match and asked the shooters there thoughts, we only had 13 shooters at our last match, they all liked the Agg, I don't remember one negative comment all summer.

With that said I'm lucky here at Vapor Trail, we don't have a lot of belly aching going on! People come to shoot and enjoy the company.

TomE

 

[DaveTooley]

I jumped to the end of this thread so forgive me if this has been brought up. When I was active I was one of the people that got the agg format in the rules. Not sure what the rules say now.
there is a solution. It's called a relay agg. The relay shoots two or more targets. They can be shot back to back or rotated but the relay shooters stay together as a group. After the last target for the relay is shot the group size is averaged ( not ranked) and you have a winner that moves on to the shoot off and then the scores are averaged(not ranked) and the winner moves on. Everyone shoots more but still shoulder to shoulder during the relay and through the shoot off

 

[johara1]

I think it is kind of funny that Reade range numbers are up with 32 for a monthly match and Williamsport is around 90 for a monthly match and both are using the shoot off format. I think you need to look a little deeper to see the reason for the lack of attendance. Jim