Norma 6Dasher Brass
- Thread starter Shiraz
- Start date
Ok thanks that gives me the info I need.
shoot4fun
Gold $$ Contributor
I am not casting any stones at Shiraz. The idea of factory 6 Dasher brass is one that's time has defineitely arrived. Thing I was trying to say was if I have been shooting 223 Ackley on WW brass for 20 years and decided to switch to Lapua or Norma then measurements and load tune would all change. Most of us (well at least myself) shooting 6 Dasher have never used anything but Lapua brass as the path so most of us had little idea what lie in store for dimensions of the new 6 Dasher brass. The question I had raised way back was then someone stated that the 6 Dasher was now SAAMI due to the new brass. Couldn't be farther from the truth. It has more or less been taken CIP instead.
I'm going to load up my brass sometime this week. Won't get around to shooting the gun next week sometime.
I've made the comment before in regards to some of the loads on other forums. I cannot comment on all the loads but we did make a ammunition pressure test barrel for a ammo maker in 6 Dasher about a year and a half ago. From the limited powder that was tested with 105gr. type bullets I will say some of the loads guys are running are past the max. working pressures.
With that being said I don't care if it's Lapua brass or Norma brass but running hot loads is going to be hard on the brass. No way around it.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
I've made the comment before in regards to some of the loads on other forums. I cannot comment on all the loads but we did make a ammunition pressure test barrel for a ammo maker in 6 Dasher about a year and a half ago. From the limited powder that was tested with 105gr. type bullets I will say some of the loads guys are running are past the max. working pressures.
With that being said I don't care if it's Lapua brass or Norma brass but running hot loads is going to be hard on the brass. No way around it.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
shoot4fun
Gold $$ Contributor
Come on now Frank!
You know that max SAAMI pressure and load data max loads are all just a guide to a good starting point.
rcw3
Site $$ Sponsor
BTW - - on my prior posting on the fired brass - - people should be careful not to read too much into it. I reported exactly what I did and what I saw and tried not to add in commentary beyond what I observed.
In a way, up front, I was hoping for a direct substitute "plug and play" situation moving from the Lapua fire formed brass I had and going over to the new Norma brass. That was not the situation for me, Can I adapt and "make do"? Sure I can - - but not without consequences, costs or issues:
1. The longer brass length - - I actually like the extra length a great deal and forward looking that's great, although it does require quite a bit of trim off to use the new Norma brass in prior Dasher chambers.
2. The rim thickness is an issue. For working in the loading room I was able to use the shell holder for a 6.5x55 Swede (30-30 Win, etc.) so that was not a problem. The brass is fine in my Borden action, but on my Barnard action, the cases get stuck in the bolt face and under the extractor and cannot be easily removed (it has no ejector so you normally have to pick them out but they normally come out easy but not with this Dasher brass - - they stick). Now I am sure I can modify the extractor to solve this, but I am loathe to do so just for this brass only (i.e. have probably 15-20 barrels in various cartridges fitted to that action and the extractor works fine with all of them - - how about if I modify the extractor for this new Dasher brass but now I start having issues with everything else that now works fine - - this is an issue that needs to be addressed - - not like you can just buy an extractor for a Barnard action anywhere - - if I modify one, I will buy an extra first and modify that for use with the Norma Dasher brass).
3. The Norma brass is different enough that I cannot just switch brass without changing the loadings for that brass (i.e. the load I use with the Lapua brass is too hot in the Norma and causes primer pocket loosening). I did not chrono the loads shot in the Norma brass yet, and if I did, that may have disclosed a marked increase in velocity consistent with higher pressure (because of smaller case capacity or some other reason). It also may mean the brass is just softer that the Lapua and deforms easier under pressure - - either way, I don't know, but for me it still gets away from a "plug and play" situation and back to a total new "work up" situation.
From my perspective #2 needs to be addressed by Norma, #1 I am good with, and #3 I can work around although, up front I was hoping I would not have to.
In a way, up front, I was hoping for a direct substitute "plug and play" situation moving from the Lapua fire formed brass I had and going over to the new Norma brass. That was not the situation for me, Can I adapt and "make do"? Sure I can - - but not without consequences, costs or issues:
1. The longer brass length - - I actually like the extra length a great deal and forward looking that's great, although it does require quite a bit of trim off to use the new Norma brass in prior Dasher chambers.
2. The rim thickness is an issue. For working in the loading room I was able to use the shell holder for a 6.5x55 Swede (30-30 Win, etc.) so that was not a problem. The brass is fine in my Borden action, but on my Barnard action, the cases get stuck in the bolt face and under the extractor and cannot be easily removed (it has no ejector so you normally have to pick them out but they normally come out easy but not with this Dasher brass - - they stick). Now I am sure I can modify the extractor to solve this, but I am loathe to do so just for this brass only (i.e. have probably 15-20 barrels in various cartridges fitted to that action and the extractor works fine with all of them - - how about if I modify the extractor for this new Dasher brass but now I start having issues with everything else that now works fine - - this is an issue that needs to be addressed - - not like you can just buy an extractor for a Barnard action anywhere - - if I modify one, I will buy an extra first and modify that for use with the Norma Dasher brass).
3. The Norma brass is different enough that I cannot just switch brass without changing the loadings for that brass (i.e. the load I use with the Lapua brass is too hot in the Norma and causes primer pocket loosening). I did not chrono the loads shot in the Norma brass yet, and if I did, that may have disclosed a marked increase in velocity consistent with higher pressure (because of smaller case capacity or some other reason). It also may mean the brass is just softer that the Lapua and deforms easier under pressure - - either way, I don't know, but for me it still gets away from a "plug and play" situation and back to a total new "work up" situation.
From my perspective #2 needs to be addressed by Norma, #1 I am good with, and #3 I can work around although, up front I was hoping I would not have to.
Shiraz
Site $$ Sponsor
Frank - that is part of the issue. Many of the wildcatters go way past maximum pressure specs. Can't say I blame the guys that know what they are doing. I am one of those guys that does that with larger calibers - kind of hot rodding and getting the max out of speed combined with accuracy. With custom actions that are beefier than standard factory actions, we can and do get away with a lot. At the same time, I also do not share my load specs. with anyone because some newbie will come along, read stuff on the internet and then blow up their grandpa's action!
What I have found personally is that:
1) Shooting a hot load on the first firing will reduce the life of the primer pockets.
2) There are consequences for "hot rodding" when it comes to primer pocket life.
3) If you change Brass brands - you must test loads starting from low and work up, not just substitute your previous hot load into a new brand of brass. If you don't do so it could be dangerous!
The cases came in today. Nice to have these in hand. I can't imagine just how much work Shiraz and co put into this.
Reamer money ran on my account today. Good deal there.
Picked up a couple RCBS#2 she'll holders just now, thanks for the heads up guys.
Now onto dies. Wonder if Whidden is making them specific to work with this brass yet?
Reamer money ran on my account today. Good deal there.
Picked up a couple RCBS#2 she'll holders just now, thanks for the heads up guys.
Now onto dies. Wonder if Whidden is making them specific to work with this brass yet?
dmoran
Donovan Moran
Couple more points I will make, that are of my own opinion and experience:
1 - the base/web diameters of the new Norma Dasher brass are very equal to there existing Norma 6BR brass, and are just slightly larger then any Norma 6BR cases that I have measured.
For that reason I can understand and respect why they may have made the new Norma Dasher brass closer to it in base/web specifications then the Lapua 6BR specs.
2 - based from my own experience, I do not believe the new Norma Dasher brass will compliment larger chambers and/or resizing dies very well (but the jury is still out on this aspect).
I have found over the years and no matter what brand of case, the closer the case can be resized back to factory specs in the base/web area will compliment integrity, longevity, and accuracy potential.
For example; my current 6Dasher brass I fire-form from Lapua 6BR's that measure 0.4685 to .469" on the web/base when new. My current F/L sizing die (a custom) resizes the Lapua made Dasher cases back down to .4688 to .469" at the base/web every time. From which if I don't over pressure the brass I get fantastic brass life and prolonged accuracy potential from them (have some with +60 firings).
At the same time, I have seen Lapua made Dasher cases that were resized with larger spec'ed F/L dies that gave up to best accuracy potential and/or pocket life much sooner, early on in the cycle counts.
With this all said, is why I recommend to keep base/web diameters in mind when spec'ing new chambers and dies for this new Norma Dasher brass.
3 - while "thicker rims" may be a hindrance to shell-holder selection and to some action's fit, I myself perceive the increase in rim-thickness as a positive to case head integrity. Simply because "the more meat, the more strength" sort to speak. The jury is still out on this aspect as well, but I will gear up for the change and look at it as a positive, since if I can get even 1 more cycle of case life from the increase in rim thickness, the cost of few fairly inexpensive shell-holders would be a wash.
Donovan
1 - the base/web diameters of the new Norma Dasher brass are very equal to there existing Norma 6BR brass, and are just slightly larger then any Norma 6BR cases that I have measured.
For that reason I can understand and respect why they may have made the new Norma Dasher brass closer to it in base/web specifications then the Lapua 6BR specs.
2 - based from my own experience, I do not believe the new Norma Dasher brass will compliment larger chambers and/or resizing dies very well (but the jury is still out on this aspect).
I have found over the years and no matter what brand of case, the closer the case can be resized back to factory specs in the base/web area will compliment integrity, longevity, and accuracy potential.
For example; my current 6Dasher brass I fire-form from Lapua 6BR's that measure 0.4685 to .469" on the web/base when new. My current F/L sizing die (a custom) resizes the Lapua made Dasher cases back down to .4688 to .469" at the base/web every time. From which if I don't over pressure the brass I get fantastic brass life and prolonged accuracy potential from them (have some with +60 firings).
At the same time, I have seen Lapua made Dasher cases that were resized with larger spec'ed F/L dies that gave up to best accuracy potential and/or pocket life much sooner, early on in the cycle counts.
With this all said, is why I recommend to keep base/web diameters in mind when spec'ing new chambers and dies for this new Norma Dasher brass.
3 - while "thicker rims" may be a hindrance to shell-holder selection and to some action's fit, I myself perceive the increase in rim-thickness as a positive to case head integrity. Simply because "the more meat, the more strength" sort to speak. The jury is still out on this aspect as well, but I will gear up for the change and look at it as a positive, since if I can get even 1 more cycle of case life from the increase in rim thickness, the cost of few fairly inexpensive shell-holders would be a wash.
Donovan
rcw3
Site $$ Sponsor
The problem I see with the rim thickness is that it just does not work on a "plug and play" basis with actions that are normally "plug and play" with brass. My Barnard has handled just about every kind of brass that's been made that works in a 308 bolt face with nary a problem until this Dasher brass. I see other postings with action issues relating to the rim thickness, feeding, extraction, etc. - - not good. We sell Dasher dies and want to support this effort and the cartridge, but what am I to do when customers ask us: "What about the new Dasher brass?" - - How can we not be honest with a customer that it might be temperamental or problematic in their gun or they might have to modify their gun to get it to work (and who the heck wants that)?
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shoot4fun
Gold $$ Contributor
Curiosity got me. I took one piece of the brass and trimmed it back to fit my chamber's neck. I measured with a blade mic at the .200 line on a piece of fired (several times) and FL resized Lapua brass. FL sized with my Whidden die there was .0005 difference. My Redding Body Die wouldn't touch the case any where. The biggest issue I see at this moment is extractor. My Stiller extractor will catch the rim but my BAT will not. I am not going to mess with my BAT because it just shoots too well.
Shiraz
Site $$ Sponsor
There are variances in extractor claws. In other words, some have more space in them than others. I have honed extractor claws many times on my actions and taking off a few thousandths of an inch takes less than a minute and does not affect shooting performance one bit.
For those that cannot visualize it, when you close the bolt, the extractor claw (which is spring loaded) climbs over the rim and stays there until you pull the bolt open. Its only job is to climb over and grab the rim. When the rim is too thick, and you remove a few thousandths of an inch from the claw face, it does absolutely nothing to the performance, but does grab the thicker rim as well as the "thinner" rings that it was previously grabbing.
Having said that, for those not accustomed to messing with mechanical parts of a gun should have their gunsmith do it. It is not rocket science, but I have a brother in law that cannot tighten a nut on a bolt, but is good at other stuff.
For those that cannot visualize it, when you close the bolt, the extractor claw (which is spring loaded) climbs over the rim and stays there until you pull the bolt open. Its only job is to climb over and grab the rim. When the rim is too thick, and you remove a few thousandths of an inch from the claw face, it does absolutely nothing to the performance, but does grab the thicker rim as well as the "thinner" rings that it was previously grabbing.
Having said that, for those not accustomed to messing with mechanical parts of a gun should have their gunsmith do it. It is not rocket science, but I have a brother in law that cannot tighten a nut on a bolt, but is good at other stuff.
Yep, 2 boxes of nice shiny useless brass now sitting on the shelf and a reamer on order that will now have to be reground to Lapua specs before it even gets used. Not a single shell holder for standard head size will fit the new brass--would like to know what "genius engineer" at Norma came up with that thickness. Time to cut losses and walk away. What a boondoggle. Completely disappointed and disgusted!
timeout
Silver $$ Contributor
I admit to being one that does not buy " new models" until the bugs are worked out. I contemplated waiting to order the Norma Dasher brass, but long wait times for reloading components caused me to order right away. I blame myself for making that hasty decision to buy. I knew about the extra length and am fine with that. I am disappointed though with the rim issues. I expected dimensions that were compatible with what most all of us had been using. I envisioned load and shoot, using all the Dasher reloading equipment we already had. I certainly have been happy with my Lapua brass, but no fire forming would be utopia! After some years of hot rodding cars, I of all people, should have known there would be issues to address. For the minimal shooting that I do, I believe I'll just continue fire forming.
rcw3
Site $$ Sponsor
I know it can feel that way, but the market is not a forgiving place and neither are customers - - they expect to buy stuff that is right and have it work and work well. My heart aches for Shiraz right now, but I don't make the rules, and maybe they don't seem fair sometimes, but that's the business world we live in. Shiraz is no novice here and if he's smart, innovative and resilient as a businessman, which I fully believe him to be, he will adjust and overcome or the product will be dropped and not remain in the marketplace.
Like I said, I don't make the rules, but I live with them just like the rest of us do.
Maybe I am off the wall here but reading the CIP drawing for the 6mm BR Norma (the base case for the Dasher), it sure looks to me like it has the max rim thickness at 1.37 mm (or .0539") - - so that begets the question on why a rim thickness of this brass is .060" which is over max?
I find it interesting that the same people were "Roasting" Lapua when they changed dimension's and went to blue box from the old brown box, and needed new reamers. The Dasher is a pain in the a-- to fire form. Guess what there is no free lunch. Make a jig to hold the Norma brass and turn the rim to what ever you want. How about the bolts to work with the PPC case head? I just trimmed the neck length to fit my chambers so I can shoot the Norma brass, it does fit my BAT action bolt. I see a lot of praise for the 280 and 280 AI, the brass available is not great. The nosler 280 AI is not the P O Ackley 280 improved. Thanks Shiraz for the option.
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