Norma 6Dasher Brass

[joefrank64k]

6br Norma has a CIP drawing (EU VERSION OF SAAMI).
The point is who ever standardizes the case sets the dimensions. Since these are the first 6mm dasher headstamped cases they are correct dimentions for the 6mm dasher.

Great point...

 

[farmer44]

I had two cases that would not extract from my action. They will not fit into my Sinclair priming tool either.

 

[rcw3]

Okay could someone that has shot this brass give me rim diameter after firing an before measured at the widest point.
Thanks I would appreciate it.

New "rim diameter", mine run around .465" - .466" and after 2 firings with the loading as per my posting above the ones which have the loosening primers pockets are at .469" - .470"

 

[dedeadeye]

My 21ST Century priming tool primed all 40 cases I am using in my tests.
Also, 5 cases I have test fired repeatly with various powders and loads by using my Magneto Speed to determine velocities for the QuickLoad Ballistics Program. Two have failed from extreme pressure.
I do believe the Dasher Norma cases will function repeatly by using pressures to
6100 psi. We have found there are powders that will achieve excellent velocities/nodes at those pressures or under.
New cases, new challenges and experimentation for the rifleman/ reloader. Ain't it great. Roger Gower

 

[expiper]

It looks like Norma has no idea or doesnt care what the Lapua 6mmBR dims. are,,,they have constructed a ctg that is as different as the Remington version,,,,there should have been more info given ,,,and there is no excuse for the rim dims to be that different than all the other .308 win style rimed ctgs,,,,now existing chambers will be too large to maintain head integrity ,,,most competent shooters realize that .002-.003 of clearance is "plenty" along the ctg. case body,,,now not only do people have to rechamber their bbls smaller but new resize dies are required,,,,remember that this excess clearance will cause the primer pockets to get loose real quick,,,and its not the fault of the case,,,I hope they hold up in a chamber that is the correct dims,,,good luck to all,,,Roger

 

[falconpilot]

Roger,

Thanks for report..I've been waiting to hear what was really going on with these cases before I bought any. Hats off to Shiraz for all he did getting these to market, but why not make them the same dim as Lapua so they will work in all chambers and dies...I was willing to trim the necks, but but I'll not buy new dies and shell holders..

 

[pburr]

It looks like Norma has no idea or doesnt care what the Lapua 6mmBR dims. are,,,they have constructed a ctg that is as different as the Remington version,,,,there should have been more info given ,,,and there is no excuse for the rim dims to be that different than all the other .308 win style rimed ctgs,,,,now existing chambers will be too large to maintain head integrity ,,,most competent shooters realize that .002-.003 of clearance is "plenty" along the ctg. case body,,,now not only do people have to rechamber their bbls smaller but new resize dies are required,,,,remember that this excess clearance will cause the primer pockets to get loose real quick,,,and its not the fault of the case,,,I hope they hold up in a chamber that is the correct dims,,,good luck to all,,,Roger

+1....::Exactly! Thanks for sharing what I was already starting to think myself. It was an opportunity for them to really make a difference in mainstreaming the cartridge but I'm getting a sour taste about it now. Was this done to force Dasher shooters to retool on purpose? And I can only imagine why on Earth they would ever do such a thing! Seriously, the brass is useless in my current "outdated" Lapua chamber. No, I'm not going to buy a new reamer. No I'm not going to buy a new barrel. No I'm not going to buy a new set of dies. No. I'm not going to buy new shell holders. And no, I'm not going to hone my extractor. Why? Because my old fashioned Lapua PoS is still shooting cleans just fine thanks Norma!

 

[Shiraz]

Roger,

Thanks for report..I've been waiting to hear what was really going on with these cases before I bought any. Hats off to Shiraz for all he did getting these to market, but why not make them the same dim as Lapua so they will work in all chambers and dies...I don't believe it happenstance that Bullets just happens to be selling newly designed reamers for the new brass..

Jim - the new reamers were needed due to the longer necks. They are not much different than the old reamers we have been selling for years. In fact, one does not need to buy a new reamer and can have their gunsmith lengthen the neck in their chamber using a neck reamer. Also, I wasn't clear if Roger whose report you refer to in your post is Post # 523 (Expiper), has actually bought any of these new cases.

 

[stansrifles]

New, mine run around .265" - .266" and after 2 firings with the loading as per my posting above the ones which have the loosening primers pockets are at .269" - .270"

The rim diameter not the brass you'll have already posted that.

 

[Shiraz]

Here are the two Reamer prints (old versus new):

The first one is a reamer we have sold for years and many people were using that for the Wildcatted Lapua brass

ORIGINAL (OLD) REAMER - http://cdn0.grizzly.com/specsheets/t23209_as.pdf

NEW NORMA DASHER REAMER - http://cdn0.grizzly.com/specsheets/t10902_ds.pdf

As you can see the body dimensions of the two reamers are the same with most of the changes being in the neck area.

 

[dmoran]

4 major aspects: (my own input, suggestions, and opinions)

1st <> Case Capacity variation:
The "case capacity" of the Norma Dasher will be less then most users current Lapua made Dashers. With first looks at capacities yielding 0.7 to 1.0-grains less capacity with the Norma Dasher then most Lapua made Dasher's.
Bare this in mind when planning powder charges to be used, and when comparing velocity and pressure to the Lapua made Dasher cases.

2nd <> Case OAL and Neck Length:
The new Norma Dasher cases are some +0.040" longer in neck length. While this is a plus to many scenario's it needs to be kept in mind and addressed to many aspects. For proper fit to the chamber primarily but also to capacity measurements, die fits, neck trimming, neck tension, neck turning, etc., etc...

3rd <> Rim Thickness:
The case head rim of the extractor groove is some +0.010" thicker then Lapua 6BR and Norma 6BR brass.
The added thickness will aid to integrity of the case head and primer pocket. But it comes with a price, and that is many of the commonly used shell-holders may not work with the new Norma Dasher cases and some of rifles actions may have issues that will have to be addressed to extract the fired cases properly.

4th <> Base/webbing diameter:
The base/webbing diameter of the new cases are smaller then many using Lapua made Dasher cases. While they are only 0.001 to 0.0015" smaller, this can be a lot in terms of "case stretch" to the base/webbing area of cases when fired. Any extra stretch in that area will effect case head integrity including the primer pockets and flash-hole. I strongly suggest to bare this in mind when spec'ing new chambers and dies to be used with this new Norma Dasher brass. Tighter specifications in this area will compliment the new brass' integrity.

Donovan

 

[pburr]

4 major aspects: (my own input, suggestions, and opinions)

1st <> Case Capacity variation:
The "case capacity" of the Norma Dasher will be less then most users current Lapua made Dashers. With first looks at capacities yielding 0.7 to 1.0-grains less capacity with the Norma Dasher then most Lapua made Dasher's.

2nd <> Case OAL and Neck Length:
The new Norma Dasher cases are some +0.040" longer in neck length. While this is a plus to many scenario's it needs to be kept in mind and addressed to many aspects. For proper fit to the chamber primarily but also to capacity measurements, die fits, neck tension, neck turning, etc., etc...

3rd <> Rim Thickness:
The case head rim of the extractor grooves are some +0.010" thicker then Lapua 6BR and Norma 6BR brass.
The added thickness will aid to integrity of the case head and primer pocket. But it comes with a price, and that is many of the commonly used shell-holders may not work with the new Norma Dasher cases and some of rifles actions may have issues that will have to be addressed to extract the fired cases properly.

4th <> Base/webbing diameter:
The base/webbing diameter of the new cases are smaller then many using Lapua made Dasher cases. While they are only 0.001 to 0.0015" smaller, this can be a lot in terms of "case stretch" to the base/webbing area of cases when fired. Any extra stretch in that area will effect case head integrity including the primer pockets and flash-hole. I strongly suggest to bare this in mind when spec'ing new chambers and dies to be used with this new Norma Dasher brass. Tighter specifications in this area will compliment the new brass.

Donovan

Yes yes yes! I could deal with it all except number 4! That forces us to purchase a new reamer, new barrel, and new dies as a result. That was my fear from the very beginning of this and it does appear to be the case now. Pun intended! And it didn't have to be that way considering virtually EVERY Dasher chamber is based on Lapua 6BR so they could have acomodated (respected?) all of those shooters foremost in regards to base/rim dimensions. Can I shoot this brass in my Lapua chamber? Sure I can, but what's my brass life going to be? Will it be the exact same as fireformed Lapua? So is a short brass life worth the hassle of fire forming? No. It is not! This would really only appeal to newbie Dasher shooters who don't even have a rifle ready for it yet.

 

[shoot4fun]

So, having never used Norma 6BR brass before, I know little about the dimensions of that particular brass. Next, I was thinking 6BR Remington and 6BR Norma are slightly different dimensions. Doesn't Lapua brass claim to be to 6BR Norma dimensions?
Is the new Norma 6 Dasher brass built to same numbers at the head as Norma 6BR brass?
If not then why? I saw all of you providing input to Shiraz about what the new brass should be in the neck but I guess no one ever thought about all the other dimensions?
Is the bloom off the rose this quickly?

 

[pburr]

So, having never used Norma 6BR brass before, I know little about the dimensions of that particular brass. Next, I was thinking 6BR Remington and 6BR Norma are slightly different dimensions. Doesn't Lapua brass claim to be to 6BR Norma dimensions?
Is the new Norma 6 Dasher brass built to same numbers at the head as Norma 6BR brass?
If not then why? I saw all of you providing input to Shiraz about what the new brass should be in the neck but I guess no one ever thought about all the other dimensions?
Is the bloom off the rose this quickly?

To answer your question somewhat, I will quote myself from page one of this thread no doubt!

"I think most people want to know how close in general this brass will be compared to Lapua 6BR since most of our chambers are based on that as the parent case. In fact, I have to say it's pretty crucial as to whether I buy any. I really don't want to get another reamer and have to re- barrel just to switch brass!"

It was my primary question and concern from the start. I didn't persue it any further because I really didn't believe they would have gone and changed the base/web/rim screwing over the vast majority of Dasher shooters! Did I learn a valuable life lesson in that regard?

 

[dmoran]

shoot4fun -
If you go back to around page 4 & 5, myself, Jim Ohara, you, etc., were asking for base/web specifications to compliment Lapua specs. Then a couple pages later (page 7) I asked Shiraz for those specifications from Norma, and he replied to me .4704" at the base from his blue-print/specs they sent him (which the finished product are not, and are some .003" shy of that spec they provided Shiraz with back then). However, they are close to and slightly larger in base/web diameter then the Norma 6BR cases.
Donovan

 

[falconpilot]

Shiraz,

Myself and I'm sure lots of other people here appreciate all you have done to bring this project forward and I'm not trying to underscore the effort you have put into this project..after re-reading my first post, I edited it because it sounded like I was..you captured it before I got it edited..I REALLY wish that the brass would work for me as you know, the Dasher is and has been my go too for a long time. It seems for certain that it'd been much better for you and your sales that the brass fit all existing chambers..All this being said, I'm wondering. Why is the brass different dim's? Why not the same size? I do understand a little about machine and production processes..were the numbers given Norma the same as Lapua brass and then Norma just didn't meet those numbers, were they given different numbers, and if so, reasoning behind those different numbers?
I ask these because a lot of us were very excited to finally have brass that we could just load and shoot and it had been led to believe all along that it would work...seems that we missed a good chance at it..

Regardless, thanks for giving us the option..

 

[Shiraz]

Shiraz,

Myself and I'm sure lots of other people here appreciate all you have done to bring this project forward and I'm not trying to underscore the effort you have put into this project..after re-reading my first post, I edited it because it sounded like I was..you captured it before I got it edited..I REALLY wish that the brass would work for me as you know, the Dasher is and has been my go too for a long time. It seems for certain that it'd been much better for you and your sales that the brass fit all existing chambers..All this being said, I'm wondering. Why is the brass different dim's? Why not the same size? I do understand a little about machine and production processes..were the numbers given Norma the same as Lapua brass and then Norma just didn't meet those numbers, were they given different numbers, and if so, reasoning behind those different numbers?
I ask these because a lot of us were very excited to finally have brass that we could just load and shoot and it had been led to believe all along that it would work...seems that we missed a good chance at it..

Regardless, thanks for giving us the option..

Jim - I appreciate your comments.

Norma was given Lapua fired Dasher brass, a Dasher reamer that I posted above (the old one that we have been selling for a couple of years) as well as the neck length information. Drawings were also provided with the Dasher wildcat as a basis.

They test fired the brass 10 times at maximum pressure and were very excited to report to us that the new brass stood up well. They used the old reamer provided by me to chamber up their test barrel. Most people are expecting an exact fit for their old wildcatted Dasher chambers. I also have one, but will lengthen the neck and use this new brass. The new brass obviously is not a carbon copy, and I can only assume that they made slight changes based on their engineering department's recommendations. Norma is very slow and very methodical in the way they do things. They test things over and over again before releasing anything. That is why this took so long.

 

[Sheldon N]

Sitting here with a box of brand new Lapua 6BR brass. I get .4685-.469 on average at the base/web and .4675-.468" at the 0.2" line. This seems to be right in line with the Norma 6 Dasher brass measurements in the thread.

If case capacity is 1 grain H20 less with the Norma brass that's roughly equivalent to a 4,000 PSI difference at the same load. If you worked up a max load with Lapua brass then tossed the same charge in the Norma brass, you could easily trash the brass in a few firings.

1g of capacity difference is going to be about 0.6g of Varget less to hit equal pressure, and will be maybe 15 fps slower. The long throat and extra 0.05" of neck will make up about 0.5g worth of capacity, half the difference.

I appreciate the early info, but perhaps we need to give more people time to work up a fresh load in the Norma brass and get a wider set of reports before making any conclusions.

 

[rcw3]

The rim diameter not the brass you'll have already posted that.

Sorry Stan - - corrected original posting as to "rim diameter" - - don't know why, I was looking at .4xx and typing .2xx - - my bad!

 

[pburr]

Sitting here with a box of brand new Lapua 6BR brass. I get .4685-.469 on average at the base/web and .4675-.468" at the 0.2" line. This seems to be right in line with the Norma 6 Dasher brass measurements in the thread.

If case capacity is 1 grain H20 less with the Norma brass that's roughly equivalent to a 4,000 PSI difference at the same load. If you worked up a max load with Lapua brass then tossed the same charge in the Norma brass, you could easily trash the brass in a few firings.

1g of capacity difference is going to be about 0.6g of Varget less to hit equal pressure, and will be maybe 15 fps slower. The long throat and extra 0.05" of neck will make up about 0.5g worth of capacity, half the difference.

I appreciate the early info, but perhaps we need to give more people time to work up a fresh load in the Norma brass and get a wider set of reports before making any conclusions.

Point taken. It was mentioned a few pages back that the Norma is just slightly smaller in that area but as rcw3 points out would be well enough to stretch primer pockets out on the first firing as he mentioned. I take notice of his results more as gospel simply because my reamer is based off of his own reamer print dimensions as well as the sizing die I use is from him and sized for his reamer! With Lapua, case life and primer pocket tightness have been magical! Dare I say perfect in fact! The appeal of Norma was all about the preformed ready to fire brass with cut to length necks.

In all fairness though, I have not received my Norma brass yet so I will defer further criticism until I have fired it myself. That being said though, when he talks about loose primer pockets with only 2x firings, it gets my attention. Especially when I had expressed that concern from the beginning about dimensional changes to Lapua brass already so prevailent to Dasher shooters.

A side note to Shiraz:

Please don't misconstrue my above comments to be an indirect attack on your great endeavor to bring us this brass, not to mention financial investment. I have been a customer on more items than just Dasher brass and that hasn't changed as far as I'm concerned!