Benchrest vs. F-Class

[Keith Glasscock]

Hey Bob:

I like the idea, but how is it going to be enforced? Why 7 sec, seems pretty short? Because that is about as fast a a really good puller can pull?

Morgen

In my experience, a really good puller with the shooter smacking strings of X's averages between 4 and 6 seconds depending on the target mechanism.

I really like a 7 second delay. I don't know how it would be planned by NRA, but I could envisage having the computer wait 6 to 7 seconds to display the result of the previous shot and not register the next shot until the prior one is displayed.

 

[daniel.chisholm]

In my experience, a really good puller with the shooter smacking strings of X's averages between 4 and 6 seconds depending on the target mechanism.

I really like a 7 second delay. I don't know how it would be planned by NRA, but I could envisage having the computer wait 6 to 7 seconds to display the result of the previous shot and not register the next shot until the prior one is displayed.

All the NRA has to do is to make the rule - it is then up to the e-target manufacturers to implement it. (And of course make sure that whatever they come up with is accepted by the shooters and the rulesmaking bodies)

The Australian F-Class shooters tried this a year or two ago and even though they didn't end up adopting it as a rule they did run a series of trials with the concept and came up with a lot of good ideas that in my opinion are well worth stealing ;-) The way we're going to go about it at my company is something like this:

• As soon as an on-target shot is registered, a large "popup" will appear immediately, indicating to the shooter and the scorekeeper that a shot has been detected.
• The value and location of the shot will not be show, but there will be a countdown timer displayed showing how much time is remaining ("6...5...4.." sort of thing)
• When the time expires, the "popup" disappears and the new shot's location and value are shown.

The idea here is that both the shooter and the scorekeeper will immediately know that the shot has been detected on-target and they are not waiting around to find out about a malfunction, crossfire or other sort of equipment failure. I would imagine that good shooters will make good use of this time they are waiting to see the shot , e.g. reload their rifle, get it back on aim, look at the wind, etc.

Some wrinkles to consider:

• what if after the shooter puts his shot into the target, and while the timer is still running, someone else crossfires a shot onto his target?
  • our approach will be that this will *NOT* reset the timer, i.e. the originally-started timer will continue its countdown to zero
  • when the time expires, *all* shots that have arrived during this "delay time" will be shown, in order of arrival.
• What if someone else crossfires onto the shooter's target, a few seconds before the shooter lets his shot go, and then the shooter fires?
  • firstly, note that the e-target system has no idea which shot belongs to the correct shooter and which shot is the erroneous crossfire. So the delay will begin when the first shot (the crossfired one) arrives
  • a sharp scorekeeper (i.e. one that is doing his job and paying attention) will probably see what has happened.
  • when the shooter fires his shot, it does not reset the timer. So in this particular case the shooter will get to see his shot a few seconds sooner than would be the case if someone on the range had not crossfired onto his target.
• In both cases, if the shooter and scorekeeper are paying attention and know which shot belongs to the shooter and which one was "donated" by some poor unfortunate soul down the line, they will be able to delete the right shot from the string. If that is not possible then the usual already-written rule(s) would apply (shooter gets the highest valued shot)

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I love the idea of electronic targets, it will grown the sport. Many ranges do not have pits. Anything that grows the shooting sports needs serious consideration.

 

[memilanuk]

A lot of people want it, but few want to pay for it, it seems. Great idea, as long as someone else is ponying up the $$$ to put the new idea in service and maintain it. US NRA matches typically charge $20-35 per day, and have for the last 15-20 years or so (at least). Shooters whine like a whipped dog if you mention bumping that number even $5 to keep up with costs, and threaten to boycott events. Now we want to do 'upgrades' to the targets that cost (cumulatively) tens of thousands or more, depending on the number of targets. Unlike other countries, we generally don't receive gov't money to help keep our ranges in safe working condition.

How much do you think competitors would be willing to pay for a 'premium' feature like e-targets? Then how much do you figure they will howl when they suddenly get a missed shot?

 

[dkhunt14]

Maybe the NRA or somebody could rent them to clubs. Matt

 

[memilanuk]

E-targets run the gamut from $3k+ per firing point, to over $10k per firing point. With many ranges having between 10 and 20 firing points, you're looking at $30k to 200k *per range* to upgrade. The NRA isn't real big on spending that kind of money on competitive shooting sports as a whole. Figure how long it would take to any sort of 'rental' scenario to pay off for the NRA... we're talking years, and the systems would be obsolete - and in need of replacement again. Asking the vast majority of shooters who *don't* compete to pay for your toys... probably not going to happen.

How about we table this, and get back to hearing about how much better BR shooters are than F-class? That was way more entertaining.

 

[savagedasher]

E-targets run the gamut from $3k+ per firing point, to over $10k per firing point. With many ranges having between 10 and 20 firing points, you're looking at $30k to 200k *per range* to upgrade. The NRA isn't real big on spending that kind of money on competitive shooting sports as a whole. Figure how long it would take to any sort of 'rental' scenario to pay off for the NRA... we're talking years, and the systems would be obsolete - and in need of replacement again. Asking the vast majority of shooters who *don't* compete to pay for your toys... probably not going to happen.

How about we table this, and get back to hearing about how much better BR shooters are than F-class? That was way more entertaining.

It is like shooters who complain about how a shoot is being run. The they don't have a clue how much work goes into one. The cost and maintenance would be the reason for not having them. Larry

 

[dmoran]

Like everything in life, E-targets will get cheaper in time, as they become more popular and as more companies make them.
In my opinion, like it or not, they are the future..... and to all the shooting realms.
Donovan

 

[dmoran]

I kind of hope you're wrong this time. Or at least have paper involved somewhere to be the "official" target. Similar to the current video systems available, but your record group/score is on real paper. Then real humans can score it lol.

Tom

I foresee target scoring to be a cell phone app in the future....
Donovan

 

[savagedasher]

Like everything in life, E-targets will get cheaper in time, as they become more popular and as more companies make them.
In my opinion, like it or not, they are the future..... and to all the shooting realms.
Donovan

Not in mine . Most clubs don't have enough competition shooters to make it worthwhile.
Average week we have 500 shooters and over half are none members . They pay $ 20.00 to shoot.
Out of the 875 members we don't have 30 who shoot competition . I think not. Larry

 

[6BRinNZ]

Not in mine . Most clubs don't have enough competition shooters to make it worthwhile.
Average week we have 500 shooters and over half are none members . They pay $ 20.00 to shoot.
Out of the 875 members we don't have 30 who shoot competition . I think not. Larry

Out of interest - we have clubs with less than 40 members total running ETs. It is only a matter of time before they are main stream. Over here there are bodies that if approached correctly provide grants for non profit orgs to get the money for items such as ETs that require a large initial outlay. With ETs you can get through the relays really quick so you can either shoot more ranges (Fclass) or run fewer targets with more shooters to a target...although currently there is no built in delay.

I have found ETs to be fantastic for load dev (agreed I'm not a world record holder or anything close) and coupled with a Lab radar probably would be my utopia. Can't wait for the day they are an item individuals get like a chrony.

I'm not keen on the changes they are bringing in to the way Fclass shooting happens now (traditional config Fer's are getting 10 shots away in under 1 min)...I definitely like the sound of the 7 second delay that the US seems to be heading towards and the way SMT are approaching it.

 

[savagedasher]

Out of interest - we have clubs with less than 40 members total running ETs. It is only a matter of time before they are main stream. Over here there are bodies that if approached correctly provide grants for non profit orgs to get the money for items such as ETs that require a large initial outlay. With ETs you can get through the relays really quick so you can either shoot more ranges (Fclass) or run fewer targets with more shooters to a target...although currently there is no built in delay.

I have found ETs to be fantastic for load dev (agreed I'm not a world record holder or anything close) and coupled with a Lab radar probably would be my utopia. Can't wait for the day they are an item individuals get like a chrony.

I'm not keen on the changes they are bringing in to the way Fclass shooting happens now (traditional config Fer's are getting 10 shots away in under 1 min)...I definitely like the sound of the 7 second delay that the US seems to be heading towards and the way SMT are approaching it.

 

[savagedasher]

I think the delay is a good idea . Without it it will turn into a equipment shoot. Larry

 

[bsumoba]

I really hope there is a delay with ETs if it were to become accepted as a normal thing in F-Class matches. I also think that it will still take some time for ETs to be implemented at ranges. It is a rather large cost to bring them to a range such as Ben Avery or Raton. I think it will be more a cost vs benefit discussion at that point. If the range has enough targets for a match, then running it with people pulling is not an issue.

With regards to F-Class and Benchrest...

I'm surprised no one brought up muzzle brakes. Calibers such as the 300 WSM are without a doubt, easier to shoot with a brake. Not to mention in Heavy BR, they got a lot more weight to use.

The dasher still rules the roost in BR, especially in LG in my opinion because they can pick a spot and machine gun 10 rounds downrange. The faster you can do it, the better your chances of a good group and the dasher is so easy to shoot that gun and rest management is not an issue at all. You can shoot 6 dasher very well in f-class, but will need to work harder if there is any wind.

F-Class is also done on the belly, so that brings a lot of challenges in itself such as guys/gals who cannot be prone for long periods of time.

Because of the longer strings and target pulling delay, wind changes plays a big part in F-Class. This is why the high BC, 7mm bullets are king. 300 WSM is too much recoil for most and brakes are not allowed. 6 Dashers are too light to handle wind changes at long ranges when there is a lot of time in between shots, so wind calls becomes that much more challenging. Make a bad wind call, and you could easily be put into the 8 ring or worse where a 7mm would still remain in the 9 or even 10 ring. The 7mm is just a good balance of recoil, accuracy and high BC bullets.

 

[dkhunt14]

I bet if a club didn't have pits it would be cheaper for Electronic Targets. Our pits cost over $100,000 to build and most of the labor was done by club members. Matt

 

[savagedasher]

I bet if a club didn't have pits it would be cheaper for Electronic Targets. Our pits cost over $100,000 to build and most of the labor was done by club members. Matt

And they are super nice. Larry

 

[Lbart]

With regards to F-Class and Benchrest...
I'm surprised no one brought up muzzle brakes.

Bryan,
In the immortal words of Archie Bunker “stifle yourself”. Laying 2 feet from the guy next to me I don’t want to hear a muzzle break go off for 20-30 rounds at a time while I am trying to gently press my trigger

 

[dkhunt14]

Bryan last time I mentioned a Brake on an F-Class thread you would have sworn I said all the four letter words in one post. Plus the OP's question was really about why the Br guys went to smaller calibers like the Dasher and F-Class seemed to be migrating to bigger calibers. Matt

 

[Scott Harris]

I don't think I've ever quoted myself before lol.

I know this, if there were a technological advancement out there, and it was approved as legal. Benchrest Shooters would use it to make groups smaller and scores higher. I couldn't wrap my head around buying it, and then retarding it so it's not an advantage.

Tom

Tom, if we wanted to make F-class similar to benchrest, then we'd have e-targets with no delay. Here's the part you are not hearing.....we don't want to turn our sport into benchrest! Reading the wind is the most challenging part of the game and being forced to shoot in different conditions is what makes it that way. It's the skill that takes the longest to develop and is incredibly rewarding to perform well. Finding a steady condition and shooting fast in it, is just one of the tools a good F-class or sling shooter has. You typically need to use several tricks and tactics to negotiate your way through a 30 minute string. Take this challenge away, and it would be an incredibly boring sport IMHO. F-class is a part of the high power discipline where delayed scoring is an integral part of the game....we want to keep it that way. The sport is growing steadily, so I don't think there is anything we need to "fix."

The Berger SWNs are in a couple of weeks, come on out and join us! It was 70 today

 

[dmoran]

I think the delay is a good idea . Without it it will turn into a equipment shoot. Larry

Larry -

You should rally for E-Gongs at Mantanee instead....

D