To clarify all this silliness, I'll say that I actually do assemble rifles. I don't machine anything with my own machines. I don't chamber, crown or turn barrels. I don't time or true actions. I simply assemble(build) the parts together ending up with my own built rifle from parts I purchased. That's my opinion of building a rifle. A machinist / gunsmith can be both or separate but pretty much does all that stuff I don't do and the stuff I can. They are the true rifle builder artist of their trade. They can do things that hurts my brain just thinking about how they did them. There mathematicians in there own right and articulate to the highest degree. Patience is something I think they invented. I'm not what they are. I'll settle for being an assembler in this case but I still call it building a rifle. Just a lower scale builder than the real deal.
Your definition of “building” a rifle
- Thread starter Dusty Stevens
- Start date
Insurance companies have underwriting classifications that have their premium rates tied to. Often, a business operation will neatly fit into a particular classification. But many business operations require more than a single classification in order to determine an accurate risk exposure. This can all be so with a gunsmith's operation as there can be various operations involved. . . including wholesale and/or retail sales. But, on a basic POV, a gunsmith is a "fabricator" and not a "builder". As with so many fabrication shops (typically a metal shop of some kind), the gunsmith will fabricate various parts and assemble them. This is what Fabrication Shops do.
If the gunsmith's shop is doing nothing more than to produce guns to sell, then he/they are a manufacturer (either wholesale or retail . . . or both). If the gunsmith is doing work for a customer, then they are not a manufacturer, but a contractor providing a services to customers that can be anything from the simple like only threading a barrel muzzle to the more complicated like truing an action or even fabricating an action. So, in some cases they may build a gun and in other cases they do not. They may even build a gun by only assembling parts they acquire from other fab shops.
In the insurance business, the verb "build" is typically never used to describe any type of metal fabrication operation. To build is typically referenced to the construction business where buildings or watercraft are constructed.
Ain't the English language fun?
If the gunsmith's shop is doing nothing more than to produce guns to sell, then he/they are a manufacturer (either wholesale or retail . . . or both). If the gunsmith is doing work for a customer, then they are not a manufacturer, but a contractor providing a services to customers that can be anything from the simple like only threading a barrel muzzle to the more complicated like truing an action or even fabricating an action. So, in some cases they may build a gun and in other cases they do not. They may even build a gun by only assembling parts they acquire from other fab shops.
In the insurance business, the verb "build" is typically never used to describe any type of metal fabrication operation. To build is typically referenced to the construction business where buildings or watercraft are constructed.
Ain't the English language fun?
Having grown up around machine shops making parts for old gun repairs and making the parts to build a firearm(which we did at one time) are more natural than assembling a erector set and saying I built a skyscraper...jus' sayin'
hogpatrol
Gold $$ Contributor
It is all semantics. Call it what you want, build, assemble, construct.
According to the gunsmiths, if a guy does not cut the chamber & tenon as well as machine some parts on the receiver then he didn't "build" the rifle. Well, the gunsmith didn't drill the and cut the rifling, so did he "build"?
I made a stock from African Mahogany, added an aftermarket prefit barrel, aftermarket trigger, scope, mounts & rings. Call it what you want, whether I assembled, built or constructed I still wound up with a rifle I am proud of and it will shoot with many of the high-end "builds" that I have had the pleasure to shoot with.
If you don't like the AR guy saying he "built" his rifle, just smile and walk away knowing that in your mind he really just "assembled" it.
According to the gunsmiths, if a guy does not cut the chamber & tenon as well as machine some parts on the receiver then he didn't "build" the rifle. Well, the gunsmith didn't drill the and cut the rifling, so did he "build"?
I made a stock from African Mahogany, added an aftermarket prefit barrel, aftermarket trigger, scope, mounts & rings. Call it what you want, whether I assembled, built or constructed I still wound up with a rifle I am proud of and it will shoot with many of the high-end "builds" that I have had the pleasure to shoot with.
If you don't like the AR guy saying he "built" his rifle, just smile and walk away knowing that in your mind he really just "assembled" it.
Larry Klutts
Gold $$ Contributor
For 20 plus years of fabricating equipment to test "NOT FOR FLIGHT" parts, my insurance was rated as "Aircraft Manufacturing"
Never fabricated anything designed to become airborne or to be certified as Airworthy, go figure.
Edited to change building to fabricated.
Never fabricated anything designed to become airborne or to be certified as Airworthy, go figure.
Edited to change building to fabricated.
Commercial liability and worker's compensation underwriting classifications (like "Aircraft Manufacturing") are not written in stone and can be negotiable if one feels the classification isn't appropriate, particularly if there's some other classification that better describes the operation and risk exposure . . .
. . . maybe something like "Instrument Mfg.–Analytical, Calibrating, Measuring, Testing, or Recording" or "Machinery or Machinery Parts Mfg.–Metalworking"??? It all depends on the details of the operation.
Stumpy1
Gold $$ Contributor
It is also how gun ownership declines -we really don't have to divide ourselves this way. Remember the old 'divide and conquer'? Somebody throws somebody else under the bus, then someone else, then we are no more -and the anti-gunners don't have to do a thing, just wait. Build, assemble, manufacture, it doesn't matter. These folks are ON OUR SIDE. Support them, share what you know, offer up some advice, bring a new guy or gal to the range. Encourage them for Pete's sake. Remember the OLD American Rifleman? You know, the one where average guys 'did things' to their rifles? Kinda like the OLD motorcycle magazines where you could learn to port a cylinder and try it yourself. Do you see any of that today?
Seriously guys, we really do need to hang together here, and not tear ANYONE or any discipline down -we already have a group of people focused on that...
Respectfully submitted,
Frank
pirate ammo
Guaranteed to take the wind out of their sails
Don't go anymore.Maybe Dusty will delete the WHOLE THING.
Gary in MD
Gold $$ Contributor
Well I don’t care what anyone says, I BUILT this chicken coop and run. Spent the last few weekends instead of shooting ground hogs!
hogpatrol
Gold $$ Contributor
Don't tell me. The woo-woo on the left is a female named Hillary.
Gary in MD
Gold $$ Contributor
pirate ammo
Guaranteed to take the wind out of their sails
Where's the chickens,where they going to roost at night,on the ground.The picnic table needs to go to a antique sale.
When I had access to a machine shop I used to do a lot of my own work. I was slow and not really qualified to be doing what I was doing. That is almost 15 years ago at least. None of it was CNC and it was the same type of gear I used in middle school and high school. So my learning curve was nothing it was more of the same. No coding, no need for coding software to convert cad/cam to code for the CNC Machines. Unlike my wife I am not a trained as a machinist. I know enough to know how steep my learning curve would be to learn to code for CNC with out conversion software. I also know that if you do not do machine work often your consistency tends to suffer. Even the cheap lathes and mills are expensive if all you want to do is work on a few rifles a year.
One of my favorite fabricators used to install their custom bolt handles on customers rifles but they stopped. Do you know why? The insurance company told them to stop it or the increase in premium would increase drastically.
One of my favorite fabricators used to install their custom bolt handles on customers rifles but they stopped. Do you know why? The insurance company told them to stop it or the increase in premium would increase drastically.
With an average gunsmith, Most AR's are assembled, rifles are assembled or modified and fit. Very few rifles are built which I would consider taking various parts, in the raw or needing to be completely worked over every square inch, making many parts, and made into something that is one of a kind, very hard to duplicate, or a specific style to one person. Each part is fit by hand to minimal tolerances. I know of a few people that when you see one of their rifles, stocks, engraving etc, you can tell.... yeah that was done by so an so. The process of putting together a nice rifle isn't hard with the right parts, tools, know how, and attention to detail which is something that not everyone has. IMO the art of how well it was all executed is what sets different "builds" apart.
When I hear someone say they built an AR, I smile and say great, tell me what you did. They are happy as clams to tell you about it. Knowing that it takes very little skill, it makes them happy. While I build rifles for myself, it's always funny when I tell people first thing they say is "Like AR's and stuff", and I say, NO, rifles, target rifles for myself. When they realize I'm not a kitchen counter AR builder, The second question is usually "How do you rifle the barrels"............. on and on.....
IMO as Tacticool becomes more and more popular, and things like barrel nuts become more prevalent, the art of a True Gunsmith is slowly being lost. While it takes skill to produce record setting competition rifles, unless your name is on it, or it's your specific parts (receiver mainly), I couldn't tell you if you made it, I made it, or the kid down the street. Parts carefully fitted together.
Always strive to do better than the last.
To each their own.
When I hear someone say they built an AR, I smile and say great, tell me what you did. They are happy as clams to tell you about it. Knowing that it takes very little skill, it makes them happy. While I build rifles for myself, it's always funny when I tell people first thing they say is "Like AR's and stuff", and I say, NO, rifles, target rifles for myself. When they realize I'm not a kitchen counter AR builder, The second question is usually "How do you rifle the barrels"............. on and on.....
IMO as Tacticool becomes more and more popular, and things like barrel nuts become more prevalent, the art of a True Gunsmith is slowly being lost. While it takes skill to produce record setting competition rifles, unless your name is on it, or it's your specific parts (receiver mainly), I couldn't tell you if you made it, I made it, or the kid down the street. Parts carefully fitted together.
Always strive to do better than the last.
To each their own.
I'm hearing a whole bunch of complaining about something we should celebrate: the proliferation of excellent parts and "systems" that allow anyone and everyone with the desire to put together something that they can call "theirs". They don't need to take it to a gunsmith or buy it whole, they can take ownership of their gun through picking and choosing the pieces and putting it together. Arguing the meaning of "build" really seems pedantic and condescending to folks who are just loving the same hobby as you in the capacity that they can.
Recognizing the master shouldn't come at the cost of the apprentice.
Recognizing the master shouldn't come at the cost of the apprentice.
jds holler
Gold $$ Contributor
My latest and mo-favoritest rifle is one that I cobbled together with parts that I already had, some purchased on EBay and Numerich, and some modified to work with what I was doing. Barrel came from PacNor, with a nut so that I could assemble and headspace myself.
I'm very happy and proud with the way it came out and how it shoots, but absolutely don't want to blow my own horn or take undue credit. How about if I simply call it "a build" that I am currently shooting. I'll be careful to avoid saying that I built it. jd
I'm very happy and proud with the way it came out and how it shoots, but absolutely don't want to blow my own horn or take undue credit. How about if I simply call it "a build" that I am currently shooting. I'll be careful to avoid saying that I built it. jd
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