XBR 8208 Failure to fire?

[reverend]

I'm using XBR 8208 in my 6XC and I like both it's velocity, 3030 fps, and it's accuracy with bare 105 scenar's. I have been using both Norma, lg primer pockets, and Lapua, small primer pockets, brass. I'm using Wolf lg rifle and Wolf small rifle magnum primers.

I had several failure to fire rounds in both type cases. When I pull the bullet the powder is stuck together and looks like it is "wet". The primers have fired. I've had no failure to fire in other rounds using the wolf primers.

Is anyone else experiencing this effect? I assume the powder is not igniting. Any other guesses or fixes? I would hate to have to change back to H4350.

John

 

[FryeGuy]

I cannot speak for 8208 itself. I had a friends gun blow up on him with a load of AA2460. It was a load he had used for years. He pulled the others he had loaded, and he stated it was clumpy, and stuck together, just like you described. You may want to contact the manufacturer with your concerns. My friend did state he had bought the powder second hand, so that more than likely was just old as the hills, who knows. Just better safe than sorry.

 

[NORZ]

Are you absolutely sure that no liquids were present in the case before loading? Do other primers from that batch you used appear to be "normal"?

That powder is very finely extruded and and treated with solvents "as others" in order to accomplish that, shrunken perhaps... just wandering!

 

[DoubleUp]

Rev., I've been loading 8208 with good success in 204 and 223 without issues, but have read of what you are experiencing in several different places. Some believe that at least some lots of 8208 have a propensity to absorb water. Are you keeping you powder stored in a stable atmosphere with not much humidity variation?

 

[Silverfox]

reverend--Do you still have the IMR 8208 XBR container this powder came in? If so, what is the lot number? Maybe someone else has had the same problem and it might be confined to one particular lot?? The lot number of the first 2 pounds I purchased was #1081309. The lot number of the next 8 pounds I purchased is #1061710.

When I first heard about this powder at the beginning of 2010, I wanted to try some. I finally found 2 pounds of it at Red Rock Sporting Goods in Miles City, MT (only 180 miles SW of where I live). My first test loads using IMR 8208 XBR were shot on April 8, 2010, in my new/used Savage 12VLP that has a 1 in 11 twist Pac-Nor barrel on it. I was very impressed with the accuracy and velocity I was getting with 8208 XBR.

About two months later, my gunsmith finished building my Stiller Predator action .17 Remington and my Savage target action .204 Ruger and I experimented with the 8208 XBR in those rifles too. I ran out of the first lot of powder on August 6, 2010, but was lucky to have been able to purchase 8 pounds of it from a different lot number at Andrus Sporting Goods in Dickinson, ND (about 130 miles south of where I live) in July. I have not had any problems with it clumping at all in either lot. I keep the covers on my powder containers shut real tight when I'm not pouring some out and I also keep the containers in Army Surplus rubber sealed 5.56mm and 20mm ammo cans.

I know some shooters have had problems with 8208 XBR concerning the burning speed not being consistent from lot to lot. As far as I can tell the new lot of powder I have gives me from 50 fps to 75 fps higher velocity than I was getting with the old lot using the same components, seating depth, neck tension, etc.

I dropped the powder charge weight down to try to duplicate the velocity with the old lot of powder, but the accuracy was not there. For what it is worth, I gave up on that plan and now I use the same powder charge weight with the new lot that I used with the old lot of powder and athough I am getting more velocity, the accuracy is just as good, if not better.

Sorry for such a long, drawn-out post.

 

[wapiti25]

I had problems with hang fires when I first started using wolf LR primers. Most of the problems I had was not seating the primer with enough force. Members here helped explain the need to seat the primers hard. I also found that in 3 different calibers that the wolf LR both STD and MAG did not reliably light Norma 204 Powder. I was still geting hang fires, I think that may have something to do with 204 being a double base extruded powder and needing a primer with more force. I have never detected a hang fire with any of the other STD Primes such as Win, CCI, FED and REM. All of the hang fires were in charges of 53grs or more in cases 30-06 or larger. To get back to the original post, the 8208 is medium burn rate single base powder and should light with ease. What about primer seating? Try the 8208 with other mild primers such as 205m. You could chronograph the loads and look at velocity spreads as ignition problems should show up. Were the cases tumbled? Corn cob media in the flash holes will screw you up big time.

 

[reverend]

Thanks for the replies.

I live in an arid high desert with low humidity. I store my powder indoor and only take the lid off to pour the powder. The powder is very fine grained and doesn't clump when I throw my charges. It is stuck together, darker, and has a different shine to it when I pull the bullet then when it went into the case. I have to dig it out of the case. It's appearance makes me think it either has come in contact with some liquids or is partially melted. I haven't kept records but I would guess this happens once every 100 to 150 rounds.

This is nearing the end of my second 8 lb jug, lot #81021094773, the same lot # as my first jug. I have four 8# jugs left all with new lot # 80826104881.

I do vibrate my brass with corn cob media. I clean every flash hole after vibratory cleaning . I clean out every primer pocket with a Sinclair tool. I use Dillon rapid polish 290 with the corn cob media. I have a large volume vibratory cleaner Dillon CV-2001 and use one cap full with each load, usually 150 pieces of brass. I load several other cartridges all with the same cleaning process. The 8208 is the only one I am experiencing with this this problem.

I'll try some different primers and seating the wolfs harder. I think I do this now but I certainly am capable of that error.

It's also possible some of the Rapid polish is left in the case, I haven't noticed that and any residual media seems to fall out prior to loading but that might be happening.

I had wonder if anyone else had experienced this problem with this powder. If no one else has experienced this it must be something I am doing, dang I hate that.

Thanks for you time. Any other thoughts are appreciated.

John

DoubleUp could you point me to where your read about similar problems? Thanks.

 

[spclark]

So far I haven't seen what you're describing with the 8208 I've been shooting in 6XC but I got a late start with it last season. I do have several pounds (1 pound bottles) of the first batch I bought, also a new full 8 lb bottle just ordered late in December.

My practice in brass prep is to tumble in corn media after all sizing operations, then blow each case out with compressed air before flipping all upside down in salvaged Remington plastic cartridge holders to inspect & if need be clear flash holes of stuck corn media granules. Then I prime, either with original KVB-7 (Russian) primers or the newer Wolf equivalent. They both need a good firm seat to be reliable; I had problems with mis-fires in 6XC and Win brass for Palma before I began paying attention to seating 'em hard.

I'll be watching for this phenomenon as I work up loads for the coming season. I live in the central midwest, not far from Chicago. Humidties here are fairly consistent & nothing like Florida or the southeast, nor as dry as west of the Mississippi. I keep my propellants in their original packaging with the lids screwed on tightly, only opening one container at a time as needed to remove small quantities for reloading then returning unused amounts to the same container after the desired number of cases have been completed. All reloading and component storage and handling is done in my un-air conditioned garage, though I do keep it heated to a minimum 36° in winter to dispel moisture.

One question Reverend: when you say Lapua SR primer brass, what are you referring to? I know Lapua 6BR & their new Palma brass use SR primers but am as yet unaware of any brass for 6XC featuring a SR primer pocket.

 

[DoubleUp]

Rev. this is the only one I found with a quick search, but it makes mention of others. If your powder is clumping and changing colors then it has to be moisture unless you have some contamination from sizing lubes, etc. That wouldn't be only in the XBR, so mositure is the best bet. You can get quite a few hits on various powders absorbing moisture and clumping, and you might explore more in depth on the 8208 XBR. I've read it more than one place, so you can probably find more info on it. Like I said, XBR has worked fine for me.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4256844

 

[reverend]

spclark

I should have been clearer on the Lapua SR primer brass. It is Lapua 6.5 X 47 necked down and fire formed to 6XC.

John

 

[jonbearman]

Sir ,when using rapid polish,you should add your capful and run the tumbler for 20 minutes to thoroughly mix it into the corn.Then I take the cover off and let it dry for a while.Then I tumble my brass..Now I dont think this is the problem.I think you have primers that are fizzling due to bad priming compound.I dont care what anyone else says,I use american primers only and have no problems lighting any powders.I really dont think the wolf primers have the critique in their process.In another words their probably using up priming compounds that never got tested.How much quality control do you think a communist country gives to anything they produce ,kinda like the chinese making phoney viagra out of chalk and road paint.

 

[spclark]

Hmmmm... I thought that might be what you's implied, if not actually come out & said. You don't find it's a tad too short in the neck or did you have a custom reamer ground to accommodate the shorter case length?

I had a couple of boxes of 6.5x47 brass around for a new project, then lost interest. Had wondered whether it could have been used for 6XC but the shorter case OAL (1.850" vs. 1.898") put me off any attempt to try it.

 

[reverend]

spclark

The necks do end up short, but they are also short when you use any 22-250 brass. It doesn't seem to effect accuracy and I use the same reamer. You will have to change your load a little because the volume of the Lapua case up to the neck shoulder junction is less than the volume up to the same level of the Norma brass. I don't think adding in the volume of the neck for a powder load is valid in this case since there is a difference in neck length and both necks are filled with bullet not powder. In my experience the Lapua brass can be loaded to higher pressures.

John

 

[tenring]

I would try loading a batch of brass that has not been tumble cleaned, charge with 8208, and if that doesn't remove the moisture, you can most likely relate the problem to the powder.

 

[Heavies]

This problem sounds strange, and intriguing.
I have been using 8208 for the past few month testing in my 6br out here in Hawaii. Temps have been swinging from lows in the 60's at night to highs in the 90's in the day, sunny, to heavy rain, to sun, and humidity from 70% on up to 100%. Some times, being a lazy slouch, I leave my Chargemaster partly filled, and have loaded when pouring rain (100% humidity). I have not seen any problems as of yet. Also, I use CCI 450's and Wolf small rifle magnums and all have lit with no problems, albeit, in the short BR case.
I am following this thread with great interest, and I hope you can solve this problem and let us know what you find.

 

[spclark]

Thanks Reverend, I'll keep al that in mind. The only 6XC I have now is my 1K rifle & I have enough Norma brass to last me (and this barrel) quite a long time. I know D. Tubb reportedly passed on small primers when developing the 6XC... the the 6.5x47 comes out with one with just a tad less case capacity.

I may yet try some; the load I found that works so well in the Norma brass with 8208 leaves quite a bit of case volume unfilled anyway. Maybe the small primer would move things a little farther in the right direction. Thanks for your post!

 

[tdking]

Reverend, how cold was it when you had the failures to fire?

It is not uncommon to have failures to fire with small rifle primed cases in cold weather. I have experienced this problem using Remington UBR 308 cases in 40 degree weather with several different powders.

I would be surprised to see it happen with LR primers, but if they were not ignited properly due to not being seated far enough, it could happen.

Theron

 

[reverend]

OK I have a follow up to my problem.

I changed out my corn cob media. I had used the same media for a long time and had added about 4 bottles of Dillon case cleaner to it over time, the cases were still coming out looking good. I also made an extra effort to seat the primers harder.

I've put 300 more rounds down range without any failures to fire.

I think I had not changed my media often enough and the residual of the case polish accumulated inside the case and affected the powder. The primer seating could have been a problem. I was aware of that issue and have always tried to seat them hard but it's possible a missed a few but the problem was in rounds the primer ignited but the powder didn't.

The temperature here hasn't been too bad. between 20 and 50 degrees.

I'm afraid once again it's operator error, especially if no one else has experienced this issue.

John

 

[17cal Fan]

Old thread but still scary. I've shot thousands or rounds of 8208 and never had a problem. I'm careful on powder storage and always seat with the same Lee hand primer. Using small cases like 17 Fireball so I use a sonic cleaner after sizing and then a couple hours in a dehydrator. Media tends to hide in the small cases so I quit using the tumbler on 17's.

 

[divingin]

I think I had not changed my media often enough and the residual of the case polish accumulated inside the case and affected the powder. The primer seating could have been a problem. I was aware of that issue and have always tried to seat them hard but it's possible a missed a few but the problem was in rounds the primer ignited but the powder didn't.

Hmmm. I haven't used the Dillon polish (I usually use a car cleaner wax if I use anything), but are you running the media wet? Most of the polishes I see are a heavy cream type compound; implies that it will dry to powder(ish) consistency eventually (much like the liquid car waxes.) Can't see that alone affecting anything ignition-wise, as long as you do the following:

Do you allow the polish to disperse in the media before adding the brass? I had a hell of a time cleaning cases of clumped up media the one time I added polish to batch of already tumbling brass. Make sure you see no clumps in the running tumbler before the brass goes in.

I do recall having one 308 round act the way yours failed; I don't think I ever figured out what the cause of it was (though being a single round, I probably chalked it up to a weak primer, or something else I did.)

I wouldn't suspect powder if you made it through an 8lb jug only to have problems towards the end. I suppose it's possible, but a jug swap should nail that down.