Wolves

[Tnslim]

There's a reason the old timers got rid of the wolves and it sure wasn't for sport. Nothing good can come from the introduction of any species that isn't native to the chosen area. The very river I lived on as a kid is now useless to go fishing due to the otters that were introduced to an area they aren't native to. IMO, if you see an otter shoot the sucker and use him to bait in a wolf.

 

[bluealtered]

To say there is no difference in herd size of deer and elk where wolves have been introduced simply means that the pack has not been there long enough for the damage to show up yet, or that the fish and wildlife department isn't releasing that information, (like Oregon did until it couldn't deny it any longer) or a host of other reasons that simply haven't come to light yet.

Another thing to consider is that wolves kill for sport, if you believe otherwise you are at best, ... wrong. We have lost over 25 head of sheep in one night to just two wolves that didn't eat any of the sheep, they just killed them for sport. They also will eat anything they can bring down. The only reason fish and game care about deer and elk is because that's their money maker.

 

[ppaul]

Well, we have a problem on Isle Royale. There are only 2 wolves left on the island from the pack of 20 or 30 that were planted there. Seems that disease and in breeding brought about their demise. The moose herd is now out growing the limited space and forage that is available. So the national park service has decided that more wolves are the answer. In their statement they said that this action was needed to restore the "natural" eco system. I'm amazed that they actually state these things. They need wolves from either Minnesota or Canada as these are the only ones that like the taste of moose meat! You can't make this shit up. They are however going to consider wolves from Wisconsin or Michigan. Maybe they are going train them to appreciate moose roast! I do agree with them that the Minnesota wolves really do like the taste of moose as the last I heard our moose population is down some 70%. They're still studying that decline for an explanation. Like I said you can't make this up! I am going to write them a letter suggesting that if we introduce some 180 gr. Nosler partitions that the moose population could be brought back to sustainable numbers. I know of nothing more natural than a moose roast on the dining room table.

That's all for now, Paul

 

[Bob Sebold]

In Wisconsin the very vast majority of game wardens and DNR personal have graduated from UW Stevens Point. These people are very radicalized socialist. I would go so far as to say they "mostly" hate hunters and fishermen. Gov. Walker is working on giving a lot of them new jobs in other states. They are quitting at a good clip. I for one will not miss them. They have screwed up more hunting in this state then is imaginable. Many people used to travel up north for deer hunting and now hunt in a crowded southern spot or quit hunting all together. Sad, but I think that is the real reason behind wolf introduction. There is a reason Wisconsin had a bounty on them until the 40's. They had professional trappers who trapped and poisoned them back then. Sounds like a good investment of DNR money to me. I wonder how much they pissed away bringing them in. I know they publicly state they did not introduce them, along with the mountain lions, but they don't travel that fast. I doubt many cats are crossing a highway bridge across the Mississippi to get to Wisconsin, except in a horse trailer. That is the mode of travel for cats to get here. Plenty of photo's showing them releasing cats and wolves. Draining the swamp needs to happen at a state level also.

 

[lawman29]

Another thing to consider is that wolves kill for sport, if you believe otherwise you are at best, ... wrong.

Now that's brilliant...next thing you know they'll be taking pictures of each other and hanging their trophies on the wall of their den...

 

[LittleLebowski]

Now that's brilliant...next thing you know they'll be taking pictures of each other and hanging their trophies on the wall of their den...

https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/opin...cle_1fa1a495-101f-5d24-8d79-c0658c8679c9.html

 

[284winner]

Now that's brilliant...next thing you know they'll be taking pictures of each other and hanging their trophies on the wall of their den...

Your 100% correct. Loggers here in the Upper Peninsula of my state watched a wolf pack run down 6 deer in a small group and kill every one of them. They ate most of one of them and the other 5 deer laid there for weeks while Ravens, Buzzards and coyotes picked away at them. Wolves kill just because they can.

 

[MikeT49]

The three S's apply: shoot, shovel, shut up.

 

[outasite`08]

The three S's apply: shoot, shovel, shut up.

Mike that applies to more then wolves. Same prinipal,don`t forget the lime. Jeff

 

[Wiskerbizket]

I got the sons of bitches in my back yard lol

 

[bluealtered]

I didn't expect to see this thread again, it just shows the problem has gotten worse. That was to be expected as well. When you get older the three "S" go down to two "S". Besides the bears have to eat as well.

Yes this whole thing is stupid to began with. This is just something else brought to you by the same people who have caused the fires that are ruining the lives of people up and down the west coast, and which will continue every year for years to come.

By the way, we spell stupid here in Eastern Oregon by just spelling "Oregon", they both have six letters and it means the same thing here anymore.

 

[Bocephus]

I had a chance yesterday to read a good write up in a magazine called Range, the current issue has a report on the results of Bruce Babbitt's bringing wolves to the west once again. No these aren't the smaller timber wolves that were at one time in the west, these are Canadian wolves which are much larger. The article goes into detail on what has happened since then using facts and figures gathered from the government agencies in charge of these programs.

I happen to live in one of areas in North East Oregon that has been hit hard by this. We were known for our world class elk and deer at one time, not anymore. Using Oregon Dept. of fish and wild life figures show that our elk, deer, and other game animals are down anywhere from 30 to 50% in some units. These figures are from 3-5 years ago so you can guess what they must be now. I have hunted and hiked and worked in these mountains for 40 years and and was able to see wolves five years before the ODFW was forced to admit that they were here.

This is just my personal observations and doesn't include any of the livestock lost to our ranchers and people who simply choose to live in the country. The two latest kills are two lamas that were pinned up next to the house that were sport kills by wolves, yes they kill for sport as well.

You might want to read that article when you get a chance, the magazine is Range and the article is Wolves, the war on the west. It is in the current issue and probably not on line yet.

Very well acquainted with the subject, the magazine and the editor(CJ Hadley). She has published a number of articles on this subject.
Several years ago a young man named JD King did a documentary "Crying Wolf" where he exposed much of the lies, corruption and downright thievery that was involved in the program. His researched indicated that funds from the Pittman Roberstson Fund were misappropriated by USFG to finance this fiasco. That's right, sportsman dollars were used to destroy the elk herds.
The most comprehensive work I have seen on the subject is "The Real Wolf" by Ted B Lyon and Will Graves. They really pull the curtain back on the nasty bastards. Two and four-legged!

 

[farmerjohn]

A wolf is nothing but a big coyote as far as a cowman is concerned.... John

 

[Kittitas George]

Going back to when Lewis and Clarke were traveling across the plains there were more plains animals here than in Africa, we also had grizzly bears and wolves on the prairie. The animals, deer, bison, elk and antelope learned to avoid and escape the wolves and bears. It was the ranchers that wanted all grazing animals gone, if it competed with cattle, it had to go. In the area I live in, the cattle people wiped out the elk and deer early in the 1900's. In the late 1950's, early 1960's it was very unusual to see elk in our nearby hills. Now we have herds that are difficult to manage because of the numbers. The neighbor had about 70 elk in the fields between 10PM and 4 AM, in August. About 300 were in his fathers field 7 or 8 years ago before any snow fell. Yes, the wolves will reduce the number of deer and elk, but the animal that has the greatest impact on elk is black bears getting the just dropped calves. Washington, Idaho, Montana and Wyoming did a joint study on the wolves and grizzly, it's probably available on Youtube. I think I saw it on MT. game dept. site. It has lots of good information, with facts. These people have a science background and are in the hills many, many days, are in the helicopter and looking at food resources. They know the number, condition and calving success for a herd. It's an impossible amount of knowledge to attain in 10 days at a November elk camp. To often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.

 

[wbm]

Another thing to consider is that wolves kill for sport

So do people.

To often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.

Does anyone teach anyone about the environmental disaster that took place on the Kaibab Plateau anymore?

Over three decades ago I worked with a NPS Ranger who was doing research on wolf/moose interaction on Isle Royale. He did the winter observation/research for a few years. Issues were raised then that "the wolf would kill all the moose" and "consume every living creature on the island." Did it happen? No. It did not. Eventually it was discovered that the suppression of fire had a bigger negative impact on moose numbers than the wolf. The wolf is not doing well on the island these days.

 

[bluealtered]

I'll add another thought here, you don't need multi million dollar copters or anything else that costs the taxpayer zillions of dollars each year to run. If you really would like to know what is going on every single day of the year, year in and year out in an area of the forest, .... simply ask a logger.

You see they don't come out of their office at 9:am Monday through Friday and then go back to their office at 3pm to write a report showing that their job is needed, if they aren't already living at the job site in a trailer, they will be there at 3-4:am 6 or 7 days a week to get things ready for the next day. This is how it really works when you work for a living in the woods.

I have worked with people in the woods who may not have had a college education but could honestly tell you exactly what was going on and had been going on for years in the forest, and more to the point, could tell you what would be going on in the forest for years to come simply because they were there everyday living it. Those people were pushed out of the forests years ago by the forest service or BLM or other agency's "that had a better way" to run public land. This is simple fact, whether or not you agree to it won't change it because we are all living the results of the "better way" now. Hows that air where you live? Don't like it? Then change it.

 

[Knotwild]

I'm not for wolves or against them. Nature WILL achieve a balance IF man keeps his "management" out of it.

The State of SC saw fit to stock a river near me that was famous in our area for pan fishing. They chose to stock it with flat head catfish and they all but destroyed the pan fishing. It was so bad they legalized using brim as bait for the catfish and refused to admit they introduced the catfish into the river.

A friend had an uncle that managed a place for wild quail hunting and in the 50's he declared war on hawks and owls. The joke was that a hawk or owl would fly around the property he managed in stead of over it. And, the next year or two he had the lowest quail population of his career because the rat/mouse population ran rampant.

But, on the same page, I can't see releasing wolves where people are running livestock. They ought to have to pay for the losses.

 

[wbm]

They ought to have to pay for the losses.

Well that was in the original "deal" that Government made. However, getting paid depended one getting proof that the payee would accept etc. etc....Guess all of us have "seen that movie" a time or two.

 

[284winner]

So do people.


Does anyone teach anyone about the environmental disaster that took place on the Kaibab Plateau anymore?

Over three decades ago I worked with a NPS Ranger who was doing research on wolf/moose interaction on Isle Royale. He did the winter observation/research for a few years. Issues were raised then that "the wolf would kill all the moose" and "consume every living creature on the island." Did it happen? No. It did not. Eventually it was discovered that the suppression of fire had a bigger negative impact on moose numbers than the wolf. The wolf is not doing well on the island these days.

Actually the wolves are doing well on Isle Royale today. Back in the early 80s they were thriving. The balance went up and down and there were 3 different packs then. Moose were plentiful as well. Eventually the Moose suffered from brain worm and populations plummeted. The wolf population followed. Rolf Peterson did continuous studies following the relationship for years. I don't follow it today as I did years ago but I do know the wolves are doing better. I'm not too far from the island today and just heard a local news report that the wolves are having health my litters and numbers are on the increase. The difference between the wolves on Isle Royale and the mainland is, they don't have deer herds to desimate. Moose don't herd up or yard up in winter. Wolves literally go into deer yards and kill big numbers at a time. They feed on them but not every deer they kill. Deer can't travel well in deep snow like wolves can. There literally sitting targets at that time of year.

 

[Patch 76]

In northern WI the DNR and USDA have worked together to attempt to deny any and all attacks on livestock from wolves. When questioned on site of an attack the normal response is simply "this is clearly a bear". They will then confiscate the carcass of the attacked animal (presumably so no more "amateur" autopsy may be performed) and place moveable bear traps baited with marshmallows around the area. After some time, the traps remain empty or a curious bear may be trapped and the problem is presumably solved. Rancher is forced to be satisfied and life goes on.....until he loses another head. The authorities always assume we don't spend any time in the woods and can track animals.

The fact is, there simply is no room for wolves in the food chain anymore. Evolution has taken its course and wolves lost out. The sooner the wolf supporters accept this, the better off things will be. All the lies and deception can stop and we as hunters can move on without concern of shooting a wolf instead of a coyote.

Can you imagine if someone pen-raised some pedigree of domestic dog and trained it to diet on big game, then released them into the wild to populate and eventually cause the devastation wolves have? I can only imagine how the legal system would handle that!? So, how are wolves any different? Maybe Rod Cornado and "Wolf Patrol" can answer this..

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