Wilson dies vs. Redding & Forster

[chino1969]

I performed a comparison between a Wilson seating die, a Redding competition seater and a Forster competition seater. The Wilson has a micrometer seating head as does the Redding & Forster. The comparison consisted of inserting a 3x fired .243 A.I. piece of brass into the body of each die and measuring the side clearance between the bottom of the case rim and it's contact with the i.d. of the dies. In the case of the Redding & Forster it was between the case rim and the i.d. of the sliding sleeve. I used a Starrett dial indicator with the appropriate button secured to the outside of the die body. Placing the indicator button against the case rim, I pre-loaded the dial indicator so that by pushing on the bottom of the case rim I could measure side to side deflection which could result in bullet run out. As expected, the Wilson die exhibited no measurable deflection when I pressed against the rim with my thumb. The Redding and the Forster showed a deflection of approx. .003. I then checked the deflection of the o.d. of the sliding sleeve against the i.d. of the Redding & Forster die body and found there to be approx. .001 deflection. The purpose of this test was to determine what my concentricity gauge was revealing in loaded bullet run out. The conclusion is that Wilson dies have the competition beat, hands down. If you want to increase the accuracy of your threaded competition seating dies, you can obtain an unreamed sliding sleeve from Redding or Forster and have your gunsmith ream the sleeve with the reamer that chambered your rifle. These sleeves are soft steel and can be purchased from Redding & Forster with a caliber specific pilot hole. This will make them as accurate as they can be. I thought other members would find this interesting.

I, like alot of other shooters, fall prey to slick advertising. I'm not faulting Redding or Forster, as they make an excellent product. The point I'm trying to make is that sometimes the simplest solution, Wilson dies, is the most accurate. There's a reason that Wilson has been around a long time and haven't had to change their original design.

 

[Anmlsrdelicious]

I can't comment on the Wilson or Redding, but I can on the Forster. I use the Forster. My runout is .001 max on my loaded 6br rounds. There are other factors that cause runout, we can all agree on that. But I have been absolutely thrilled with the Forster seater. Can't say a bad thing about that die.

 

[chino1969]

That kind of run out from a threaded die is excellent, mine are not that accurate. My sole reason for performing this comparison is that I just began using Wilson hand dies while seating bullets for my 6BR. I was immediately impressed when I placed loaded rounds in my concentricity gauge, rolled the cases, and could see <.0002 run out. I have a Redding Comp. Seating die and a Forster Comp. Seater in .243 A.I. which I have used for my .243 A.I. I had the Forster reamed with my .243 A.I. reamer, the Redding is factory 243 A.I. sleeve. I've used the two dies to seat bullets in my .243 A.I.; hundreds in fact. When I checked the run out on my concentricity gauge I would sometimes see as much as .003 run out. Prior to seating the bullets in these re-sized cases I checked the the concentricity of the necks and there was little or no detectable run out. After seating I would have bullet run out which led me to believe the seating dies were the cause of my run out. The dies were squared with the shell holder, the shell holder dimensions checked, and I even surface ground the locking ring for the die so that when it was screwed into the stoned top of the press bushing, every surface would be squared and true and still saw run out. Now bear in mind that sometimes the run out would be .001 to .002 and would go as high as .003 with perfectly concentric and turned necks. The inside of the necks are always cleaned with an old brush with steel wool wrapped around the brush for carbon removal.

After seeing how concentric my loaded 6BR rounds were, I purchased a Wilson seater in .243 A.I. and began checking the concentricity of loaded rounds with the same cases. The Wilson seater exhibited no detectable run out and I am now a convert to hand dies for all of my accurate rifles.

 

[Anmlsrdelicious]

chino69, i kind of get the feeling that the seating process is only 1 part of the concentricity game. I think it's more of a matter of chamber dimensions/straightness when compared to the die used for sizing also, and then the final step, the bullet seater. I think I may be pretty lucky with what I have. I use no tricks to get this runout. RCBS press, Redding S type FL die, Forster seater for my 6BR. About half of my last batch of loaded rounds,50) were approaching perfection. The other half were between .0005 and .001. I think that is phenominal for stuff you can buy off the shelf. I will never ever change dies now. But I do agree with you about adsvertising and how it's hard for a guy to know what works and what does not. THere is a reason the Wilson's are favored by most. They are awesome. But I am here to tell you the Forster seater is very good, maybe even great, but there are other pieces of the puzzle that have to work with it.

 

[chino1969]

I agree with you that the Forster is very good as well as the Redding. What I am planning on doing to get these two dies tighter is to order a sliding sleeve with only a pilot hole. The sleeve will then be reamed with my reamer and I will re-measure. These dies have to be able to work with anyone's .243 A.I., min. SAAMI as well as max SAAMI dimensions. These are the dimensional tolerances that I am seeing. I agree with you that concentricity is a piece of the accuracy game; not the total. Accuracy is a constant pursuit for excellence in all facets of the shooting game and recognizing when one component is detracting from the process.

 

[Anmlsrdelicious]

Chino69,,,,,I like your idea of using your reamer on the sleeve. This could be a very good thing for guys that are having difficulty achieving good concentricity, and it might give them a hand, assuming they have a straight chamber and that thier sizing die is straight and close to chamber dimensions. I have always wondered how, when everybody uses different neck dimensions, how is there not a little slop when everything is lined up and the bullet is seated using a factory off the shelf seater of whatever brand. I would think that the thinner the necks on the brass are, that the more slop there is when seating with a factory seater. But then again, I have a .266 neck and I'm using the Forster factory seater unmodified, so maybe it's just the luck of the draw.

 

[Mark Walker in TX]

I just received my first Wilson seating die with a custom rifle I also just received. I have a couple of questions for those already using one.

What degree chamfer are you using on the brass, for example, when loading a long BT bullet, like a S107?

Also, did you notice that the bullet touched the top of the stem, or is the bullet only contacting the stem at the ogive?

Have any of you had to ream the stem deeper to use VLD type bullets?

I have a question, as well, on the custom Wilson bushing sizing die that I received. It is too short to work in a Dillon. The ram does not come up far enough, or the threads on the die are too short to be screwed down far enough, to fully size the case.

It works fine in a Harrells press, but I was hoping to be able to use it in the Dillon as well. Any thoughts or suggestions??

Now, on to the custom sliding sleeve. I have one, a Redding 6PPC Comp seating die that I had a custom sleeve done to convert to 6.5 Grendel. It works wonderfully!!! For those wanting to use this setup, I would highly recommend it.

 

[Gunslinger45Colt]

Chino69,,,,,I like your idea of using your reamer on the sleeve. This could be a very good thing for guys that are having difficulty achieving good concentricity, and it might give them a hand, assuming they have a straight chamber and that thier sizing die is straight and close to chamber dimensions. I have always wondered how, when everybody uses different neck dimensions, how is there not a little slop when everything is lined up and the bullet is seated using a factory off the shelf seater of whatever brand. I would think that the thinner the necks on the brass are, that the more slop there is when seating with a factory seater. But then again, I have a .266 neck and I'm using the Forster factory seater unmodified, so maybe it's just the luck of the draw.

I believe when your happy with your dies, go fo it. But when all things being egual. The Data prooves a strait line seater to be more accurate. Well there you go. Again, if your dies meet your acceptible tolerences, load away and have fun. The pros have a very small tollerance and everything is measured precisely. But then sometimes loading is not as important as very fine shooting and wind calling. Humans love to over complicate things. The most simple way is usually best. Gunslinger

 

[Barlow]

Chino69, Does your group size show a difference between the various seating dies? Barlow

 

[Laurie]

Also, did you notice that the bullet touched the top of the stem, or is the bullet only contacting the stem at the ogive?

Have any of you had to ream the stem deeper to use VLD type bullets?

The tip bottoming out on older Wilson seaters is very common in calibres using long thin bullets - 6/6.5/7mm. Reaming the stem out or buying a 'VLD stem' is often needed. Current Wilson seaters seem to come with deeper cavity stems IME.

This can be even more so an issue with factory threaded dies. A variety of such in 6.5 and 7mm dies that I've looked at nearly all saw bullet tips bottom out, Forster being an exception. I didn't have any recent Redding seaters to compare, so can't comment on this make. To be honest, I find it ludicrous that Hornady which has been selling long plastic tipped match bullets for as long as I can remember (AMax from many years back pre the ELD series) doesn't produce seater dies with stems that accept any of these bullets in several calibres! (Or at least didn't in examples made a year of two back, maybe they've put that right now!)

 

[kvd]

Chino69, Does your group size show a difference between the various seating dies? Barlow

This is a 11+ year old thread.

Ken

 

[Laurie]

Ha! Ha! Good point - always worth checking the date of the last post. The Accurate Shooter forum is so large now that it's easy to miss how old some of the threads and posts are. I thought those from 2005 like this one had been archived though with the 6mmBR.com forums material.

 

[Barlow]

This is a 11+ year old thread.

Ken

I'll be damned! Barlow

 

[Mark Walker in TX]

Ha! Ha! Good point - always worth checking the date of the last post. The Accurate Shooter forum is so large now that it's easy to miss how old some of the threads and posts are. I thought those from 2005 like this one had been archived though with the 6mmBR.com forums material.

Ha! I saw the alert and read the response thinking, wow, I have not had that setup for 10+ years... ;-)