why start annealing?

[JeffG]

As a hunter primarily I do not run thousands of rounds through any of my rifles..maybe not through all of them put together (well, excluding 22 LR's), so I've never really explored annealing.

I have some brass with 4-6 firings (6BR, 284 win, 270) and they seem fine. I have some that get split necks after two firings (22Horn, 219zip)

My solution has always been to retire my brass and get more, am I sacrificing anything other than longer case life by not annealing?

Thanks for tolerating this simple/ over-explored question.

 

[Brians356]

I reloaded for a couple of decades before starting to anneal, even fireformed and reloaded for an Ackley improved with no issues. For a long time I neck-sized only for 223 Rem, and I have Winchester cases which have been reloaded over 7 times with no split necks. The only reason I started annealing was I got some split necks in 6mm Rem cases after only a few firings (even using a minimal bushing approach). I have since started minimally full-length sizing all my cases (Redding body dies and bushing neck dies) and annealing just because it turned out to be so easy and inexpensive to do.

I have posted elsewhere recently about my inexpensive setup - Butane torch, cordless screwdriver, Lee locking shellholder, and 475-deg Tempilaq (to determine heating duration initially, following Hornady's published method.):

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3875570.msg36587775#msg36587775

Here's Hornady's instructions (although they no longer sell the kit itself, the methodology is well explained):

http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/manuals-discontinued/metalic-reloading/tools/Annealing-Kit-instructions.pdf

Certainly with your Hornet and Zipper cases at least, annealing seems like an obvious way to go. But also you should make sure you are not overworking the necks unnecessarily with standard FL or neck-only dies and expander buttons.

PS

Hornady describes quenching in water, which can't hurt, but is probably unnecessary.

 

[ShootDots]

Not only will annealing prolong the life of the brass, it will allow your bullets to be seated nice and smooth with at least some measure of consistency.. If you are not shooting all that much from any one rifle, then annealing can be easily done by hand. (Many videos on Youtube about this).... Since you do not do volumes, you won't be spending hours annealing your brass over and over again at frequent intervals. So then the question becomes "Why NOT anneal"?..

 

[jcampbellsmith]

Not only will annealing prolong the life of the brass, it will allow your bullets to be seated nice and smooth with at least some measure of consistency.....

Very well said. Rule 1 of reloading is to be consistent in what you do. Annealing helps to meet this rule. Regards JCS

 

[JeffG]

Thanks much for the feedback Gentlemen,
I will give Brian's home-made system a try this weekend, I actually have all the components!

 

[dkhunt14]

Another feature that annealing does is help to seal off the chamber on firing usually giving you more consistent velocities for longrange. It also helps on getting consistent bumps when sizing. Matt

 

[Brians356]

Thanks much for the feedback Gentlemen,
I will give Brian's home-made system a try this weekend, I actually have all the components!

I use a cheap electronic metronome to tick off the seconds (I'm a musician, so I had one anyway) and do a couple of cases, initially, with the Tempilaq about 3/8" below the shoulder, just to determine count. After that omit the Templilaq (it's a pain to clean off the cases.)

 

[JeffG]

Thanks much for the feedback Gentlemen,
I will give Brian's home-made system a try this weekend, I actually have all the components!

I use a cheap electronic metronome to tick off the seconds (I'm a musician, so I had one anyway) and do a couple of cases, initially, with the Tempilaq about 3/8" below the shoulder, just to determine count. After that omit the Templilaq (it's a pain to clean off the cases.)

Got an average count? 4/4 time, adagio, three measures?

 

[Brians356]

Thanks much for the feedback Gentlemen,
I will give Brian's home-made system a try this weekend, I actually have all the components!

I use a cheap electronic metronome to tick off the seconds (I'm a musician, so I had one anyway) and do a couple of cases, initially, with the Tempilaq about 3/8" below the shoulder, just to determine count. After that omit the Templilaq (it's a pain to clean off the cases.)

Got an average count? 4/4 time, adagio, three measures?

Nope, sorry, didn't go there. Just X beats (depending on cartridge) at 60 BPM (which happens to be at the break between lento and larghetto, or tempo di valse if you count in measures.)

 

[amamnn]

Different cases will take different amounts of time to anneal properly due to the fact that we are tring to heat differing masses of metal. The body of the case can make a big difference in the time needed to heat a neck as it acts as a heat sink. The time needed to heat a .223 WSSM case compared to a .223 rem. case is much different. As far as I know, there is only one way to tell when a case neck has reached 700 degrees and is therefore annealed properly, and that is by using Tempilaq --on the inside of the neck if using a flame to heat the case.


Induction is more effective in that the tempilaq can be painted on the outside of the case and not burned off by the flame, giving a false indication. Also induction cooks the caseneck through and through again avoiding the false indication that can be seen when using flame. Many people will go by case color (more properly discoloration) to guess when the neck is truly annealed. Unfortunately flame heats the outside of the case when applied as most of us do, and a butane or propane single flame will discolor the surface of the brass long before through and through annealing has occurred. Using the double torch systems will prevent this problem since they can heat the neck much quicker. Ideally, we want to heat things up as quick as we can in order to localize the resetting of the structure of the brass, keeping it in the neck area oThis is true assuming that we are annealing in an effort to reset the crystalline structure of the alloy in order to restore the brass to something like its original ductility and keep our cases performing uniformly.

I used a single torch for years and got more life from my brass, I switched to a dual torch Ken Light system and got better ductility and hence better consistency from my brass. I gave my KL to my son when it became clear that I was not going to be able to shoot as much as I used to and eventually got an induction heater which I now use. Mine is pretty slow to use in that I can only do one case at a time, but there are some folks who have put together a batch flame annealer without the torches with a new induction heater and that looks like a real nly. winner to me.

 

[Brians356]

Induction is more effective in that the tempilaq can be painted on the outside of the case and not burned off by the flame, giving a false indication.

In the Hornady method (which I suggested, and the OP will be trying) the Tempilaq is applied well below the point of the shoulder, and the flame is applied only to the neck. If the paint is burned off by the flame, it means one has no business tinkering with this kind of work. 8)

 

[lbs]

tempilaq inside the case neck where i can still see it.

thats where i want to know it's not over heating.

if the left over bothers you on the few cases i sometimes brush it out with an old brass brush

 

[savagedasher]

As a hunter primarily I do not run thousands of rounds through any of my rifles..maybe not through all of them put together (well, excluding 22 LR's), so I've never really explored annealing.

I have some brass with 4-6 firings (6BR, 284 win, 270) and they seem fine. I have some that get split necks after two firings (22Horn, 219zip)

My solution has always been to retire my brass and get more, am I sacrificing anything other than longer case life by not annealing?

Thanks for tolerating this simple/ over-explored question.

Yes annealing helps. Will it make much difference on hornet brass probably no. The brass is very thin and most chambers are large. Custom chamber and custom dies the brass will last. Larry

 

[amlevin]

Take a look at one of your fired cases paying close attention to the case mouth. After a firing or two you might notice how the edge seems to be slightly turned inward even though logic says it should be nice and straight.

This is a sign that the edge of the case mouth has work hardened more than the rest and has sprung back more.

Anneal you case necks and this condition goes away. Everything you do to that case from sizing, neck turning, bullet seating, etc, becomes far more uniform. This is all in addition to longer case life.

I anneal regularly and out of the hundreds and hundreds of .308 cases I have, I've had only half a dozen neck failures in the last 10 years. Primer pockets get too large before the necks split when one anneals regularly.

 

[Brians356]

tempilaq inside the case neck where i can still see it.
thats where i want to know it's not over heating.

Then the 450 - 475 deg Tempilaq (as specified by Hornady below the shoulder) will be wildly inappropriate, you would need something in the 700-deg range. Both Hornady and Ken Howell prefer to monitor temperature on the body below the shoulder, and that's good enough for the likes of your humble narrator.

 

[BenPerfected]

As a hunter primarily I do not run thousands of rounds through any of my rifles..maybe not through all of them put together (well, excluding 22 LR's), so I've never really explored annealing.

I have some brass with 4-6 firings (6BR, 284 win, 270) and they seem fine. I have some that get split necks after two firings (22Horn, 219zip)

My solution has always been to retire my brass and get more, am I sacrificing anything other than longer case life by not annealing?

Thanks for tolerating this simple/ over-explored question.

"Why start annealing?" is a good question. There are lot's of things to do in the reloading process and annealing can be easily and consistently be done by others such as DJ's Brass or The Brass Annealer at a very reasonable price.

 

[mikecr]

Annealing is not always a good solution.
-If your annealing isn't consistent and correct, neither are the results.
-You would need to develop loads with the reduced neck tension annealing leaves, and your results may or may not be good with it.
-Where necks/shoulders fit your chamber and sizing is then minimal, annealing won't help a thing.
-Cleaning cases for annealing leaves you with other issues to manage.

I concede there are situations where annealing seems a solution, but I never see it as 'good' beyond the prep stage. Fixing the actual problem is a better solution IMO.
When someone suggests annealing 'fixed' their split necks, that's not true. Their necks were not splitting because they didn't anneal enough. Their necks split because they were overworking them, and that problem likely remains while they think annealing solved it...

 

[lbs]

i guess i'm going to disagree with honady and howell. yes 750 tempilaq is what is used inside the case neck. thats the part of the brass that needs reconditioning to it's original state.

you can use 450 on the shoulder. the idea is if the shoulder is @ 450 the neck is being heated properly.
but thats really guessing, why not monitor the part that needs annealing in the first place? thats my take on it anyway

 

[Brians356]

When someone suggests annealing 'fixed' their split necks, that's not true. Their necks were not splitting because they didn't anneal enough. Their necks split because they were overworking them, and that problem likely remains while they think annealing solved it...

If someone's brass handling yields split necks after, say three firings, then they start annealing and they can get, say 20 firings or more (all else remaining the same) hasn't that "solved" their split neck problem?

I took factory 6mm Rem ammo, sized the once-fired cases using Redding body die to move the shoulders back only 0.002", sized necks with a Redding Competition Neck Die, the bushing to reduce the neck OD 0.002" smaller than loaded round. Was that overworking the brass? I got split necks after 3 firings. (Yes, it was a factory chamber, and I was still having to bring the necks down 0.006" or so.)

I'll bet if I had annealed the factory cases before resizing them, I would have gotten several more firings out of them. And if I started annealing every couple of firings, they might last until the cows come home.

I'm not flatly refuting your assertion, but I would appreciated more exposition. I respect your opinion (and I thank you for help you've given me in the past.)

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Not only will annealing prolong the life of the brass,

I'm very sad about this but I must disagree with or at least place a huge caveat on, the above statement.

Annealing does not prolong brass life in many, if not most instances.

Annealing is for maintaining consistency of neck tension throughout the life of the case. If your goal is to prolong case life in a bottleneck rifle case, you will be much better served dumping the regular sizing die and using a bushing die without the expander ball.

A regular sizing die will constrict the neck more than needed because it has to function for all brass types and then expand the neck back to a size where you can seat a bullet. That overworks the brass like there's no tomorrow. The less you work the brass in your reloading and the tighter the chamber is, the longer the brass will last.

Before I started annealing some years back, I used to get 8 loads out of my brass resizing with my small base FL bushing die and by then the primer pockets were too large. Everything changed when I got my Giraud annealer and I have been using it for every loading before resizing with my small base FL bushing die. Now I get 8 loads before the pockets are too large. As you can see, a definite improvement in case life.

Not.

On the other hand neck tension is consistent throughout these 8 loadings, and that's what I was looking for.