Why do we get fanatical over barrel alignment?
- Thread starter X Count
- Start date
Lucky Shooter
Gold $$ Contributor
I wouldn't dare ask "why ?" just yet but I do certain things for "insurance".
When I've indicated a short section of bore at the muzzle as well as can do,
I cut a very small journal, just behind the muzzle face or crown----just a deep enough cut to clean off the red Sharpie. One more successful check of the internal indications verifies a true external surface that is easier to use than an indicator in the bore.
Square and crown the muzzle.
Flip the barrel around and indicate the throat and muzzle as best you can and
cut a similar journal at the breech end.
I prefer to cut the chamber while I have convenient true surfaces to check against.
Jackie prefers to rough the tenon in at this point. This really is just an extension
of cutting a test surface----I think.
Some times comfort is a factor in how and why we approach things. I'm comfortable when the barrel is properly indicated and the chamber and crown have been cut per these indications.
I'll lag back and wait for somebody else to pop the "why" question.
A. Weldy
When I've indicated a short section of bore at the muzzle as well as can do,
I cut a very small journal, just behind the muzzle face or crown----just a deep enough cut to clean off the red Sharpie. One more successful check of the internal indications verifies a true external surface that is easier to use than an indicator in the bore.
Square and crown the muzzle.
Flip the barrel around and indicate the throat and muzzle as best you can and
cut a similar journal at the breech end.
I prefer to cut the chamber while I have convenient true surfaces to check against.
Jackie prefers to rough the tenon in at this point. This really is just an extension
of cutting a test surface----I think.
Some times comfort is a factor in how and why we approach things. I'm comfortable when the barrel is properly indicated and the chamber and crown have been cut per these indications.
I'll lag back and wait for somebody else to pop the "why" question.
A. Weldy
jackieschmidt
Gold $$ Contributor
The answer to the “Why” question is “good machine shop practice”
From a machinist standpoint, the most difficult aspect of barrel work is establishing the chamber exactly where you want it in relation to the ID of the barrel. All subsequent operations are just regular machining and measuring.
From a machinist standpoint, the most difficult aspect of barrel work is establishing the chamber exactly where you want it in relation to the ID of the barrel. All subsequent operations are just regular machining and measuring.
Sniperhandle
Silver $$ Contributor
We have had many barrels like this too. That's why I won't buy barrels from Gunsmiths on forums. You ever wonder why they have a lot of ten or so barrels for sale? It's all of the ones that weren't that straight. He's already bore-scoped them, And he's indicated them in to check straightness. I will buy them from regular guy's, But not known Gunsmith's. I like to buy them direct from the Mfg, But in times like these buying one from a forum speeds things along.
Last edited:
Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
I know some good BR gun smiths. Guys that are paying attention, and their rifles are winning and breaking records. Not one will say that the straightness of a barrel will correlate to the accuracy of it. Nor will any waste time to dial them all in just to measure something that doesnt matter. I think someone has fed you some bs there. I have tracked this for years. There is zero correlation between bore straightness and accuracy. Not to mention the fact that selling something with a problem is dishonest. I remember selling some extra barrels a couple years ago. A guy asked if they were factory sealed in the cardboard. I said no, when you order 10 barrels they come in a crate, not in cardboard. He no longer wanted one. Its unfortunate he must have dealt with dishonest people to feel like that, but you cant measure or bore scope a barrel and know how it will shoot anyhow.
Last edited:
But how about slugging a barrel to get some idea of bore dimension consistency?
Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
Obviously we want to see consistent grooves and relatively straight bores. That tells us the guy making them are doing a good job. Yes, I would prefer to have a barrel slug well, but one of the best barrels I have ever owned had a loose spot in it. So bad you could feel it with a path or brush. It would foul in that spot pretty bad too. The steel is the most important part of the barrel. Had I slugged that barrel I would not have used it, Id have sent it back and gave away one of the best barrels I ever owned. You just wont know until you shoot them.
Sniperhandle
Silver $$ Contributor
Slugging a barrel isn't going to tell you how straight a barrel is. I have no doubt that people bore scope barrels and pick the ones with the best finish.
Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
I agree. Im sure some do that. But they are fooling themselves. Slugging is the best way to try to evaluate a barrel. You dont want a tight one since it will build pressure. Theres some carbons out there that you probably want to be slugging. You also dont want one that loosens up. I have slugged some that loosen as the contour shrinks. Thats a heat treat issue. I had one that was really bad. It had a reverse taper. Guy didnt care and it was sub 1/2 moa on a hunting rifle in a magnum cartridge. Not that 1/5 moa is good, but the rifle limited that as much as the barrel. Just saying that you never can tell unless something is BAD.
Edd
Gold $$ Contributor
Here is one shops description of their inspection process.
When fitting a new barrel the first order of business is to confirm the specification such as profile, twist, rifling count and caliber. The barrel is then cleaned spotless inside. Then a 17" Hawkeye bore scope is used to visually inspect every land and groove from one end to the other to look for uniformity, tool marks and imperfections that can cause unacceptable fouling. Then we use dead soft lead slug oiled up with 20-50 motor oil. It is passed both ways through the bore pushed by a series of brass rods until it can be passed back and forth smoothly. We can feel dimensional changes that cannot be measured. With my eyes closed I can feel things as subtle as external taper changes in the bore, where fluting starts and stops and of course any internal defects that can affect how the bullet rides in the barrel. Depending on what is found it is corrected or if substantial like loose where the crown is going to be then the barrel is rejected and the barrel manufacturer will need to replace it.
When fitting a new barrel the first order of business is to confirm the specification such as profile, twist, rifling count and caliber. The barrel is then cleaned spotless inside. Then a 17" Hawkeye bore scope is used to visually inspect every land and groove from one end to the other to look for uniformity, tool marks and imperfections that can cause unacceptable fouling. Then we use dead soft lead slug oiled up with 20-50 motor oil. It is passed both ways through the bore pushed by a series of brass rods until it can be passed back and forth smoothly. We can feel dimensional changes that cannot be measured. With my eyes closed I can feel things as subtle as external taper changes in the bore, where fluting starts and stops and of course any internal defects that can affect how the bullet rides in the barrel. Depending on what is found it is corrected or if substantial like loose where the crown is going to be then the barrel is rejected and the barrel manufacturer will need to replace it.
LVLAaron
Gold $$ Contributor
I bought a barrel from you. I was warned. I put it on a gun and it’s a real hummer. My last match was a 200-15x with it and it won overall for the day.
I didn’t think a well known guy would knowingly out a crap barrel out there.
Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
Why would you? If theres an issue any decent barrel maker will replace it. You dont dump stuff on other guys. If a guy does that it will get around real fast. Inventory sitting around doesnt make sense. Periodically I go through it and list barrels or stocks sitting around. Im sure most guys do the same thing. I have been asked to go through my pile of barrels to look for "a good one". I say no, I will grab one and its yours. If it checks out poorly we will deal with the maker. But its not going back in the pile for the next guy. It should be luck of the draw. Thats fair in my mind. When chambering one for myself I grab one and throw it in the lathe chamber it and thats all there is to it. You just dont know until you shoot it.
Last edited:
Sniperhandle
Silver $$ Contributor
Alex probably wouldn't but there are some that would. Some folks only care about the money, I've been burned a few times on forums, Well hidden defects by camera angles, Not so honest descriptions, Lying about round counts on rifles etc. But hey they got their money that's all that matters to them.
You can bore scope them and they can look perfect also some not so perfect..I've chamberd some that don't look as good as the other maker and they've been real tack drivers.i chamber every barrel the same..straight concentric chambers..that's what we all strive for.I can't say how good it will shoot .can anyone.
jackieschmidt
Gold $$ Contributor
I shoot only cut rifled barrels, in particular Krieger and Bartlien.
Both guarantee the groove diameter to be +- .0001, and if it is not completely straight, it will never be tighter on the breach end than the muzzle end. I find this to be true.
I gave up long time ago trying to use my machinist skills to ascertain whether a barrel is going to be competitive. I simply chamber them up and shoot them. Many of the things that those that tout as being deal killers are fantasy. If you are finding major anomalies in barrels, you need to switch brands.
The late Gene Bukys used to buy barrels in multiple lots. I had been in his shop where he had just took delivery on no less than 50 brand new blanks in boxes. He would chamber them up, shoot them, and decide which were worthy of any more of his effort.
The difference between good and great really isn’t that much. Many shooters lack the skills to even tell the difference. But the true competitor knows that wasting good bullets, powder, cases and range time trying to convince yourself that a barrel is capable is an exercise in futility.
These comments pertain to Short Range Group and Score. That’s what I know.
Both guarantee the groove diameter to be +- .0001, and if it is not completely straight, it will never be tighter on the breach end than the muzzle end. I find this to be true.
I gave up long time ago trying to use my machinist skills to ascertain whether a barrel is going to be competitive. I simply chamber them up and shoot them. Many of the things that those that tout as being deal killers are fantasy. If you are finding major anomalies in barrels, you need to switch brands.
The late Gene Bukys used to buy barrels in multiple lots. I had been in his shop where he had just took delivery on no less than 50 brand new blanks in boxes. He would chamber them up, shoot them, and decide which were worthy of any more of his effort.
The difference between good and great really isn’t that much. Many shooters lack the skills to even tell the difference. But the true competitor knows that wasting good bullets, powder, cases and range time trying to convince yourself that a barrel is capable is an exercise in futility.
These comments pertain to Short Range Group and Score. That’s what I know.
Last edited:
STS
Silver $$ Contributor
I'm certainly not trying to be argumentative, but what is "the best finish?" I've had a pile of barrels over the years from the top names in the business and the one barrel that stands out in my memory that had "the best finish" was the worst fouling barrel I ever had. It was beautiful inside.... and fouled so bad that you couldn't shoot it. 10 shots and it would take 2 hours to get the copper out of it. As has been pointed out previously in this thread, there's only one true way to evaluate a barrel, and that is to do the machine work on it and then shoot it. Anyone that thinks they can pick a winner out of a dozen barrels is kidding themself.
Has that ever been proven? I was taught to seat into the lands ever so slightly. If its touching how can it get misaligned? Everyone screams jump, yet no one wants a long throat. why go to the trouble to make a perfect bore chamber alignment if you are going to hold the bullet back so it can have enough room to enter the bore at an angle? It makes no sence to me, but them no one ever accused me of being the sharpest pencil in the pack.
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.