Why can't USA make brass?

[Sling]

Seems like we make some of the best shooting components but why can't someone in the US make high quality brass like Lapua, Norma, or RWS? I am not trying to start anything but seems like lapua and Norma dominate when it comes to quality. Hornady is trying but not there yet. I have measured their Creedmore and 308 match brass but I won't purchase anymore till quality gets better.

 

[CarolinaBrass]

Lake City IJS

 

[finnaddict]

Very good point.

Just my two cents. Some tend to make quality... others just want your money and give you nothing.

 

[mao0720]

Winchester is great brass! Just have to do your case prep like you do with Lapua or Norma or any other brass out there.

 

[ShootDots]

I think Americans CAN make the best of anything we put our minds to. Problem: We have become a "profit at all costs" nation so the "bottom line" looks good to investors / stock market. With higher wages here, non-business like economic environment, and the "scare" of the longevity of the "firearms market", keeps smaller "boutique" outfits from forming. Berger bullets, a "former" boutique maker of bullets, has become rather large and they have trouble keeping up with demand and STILL maintain excellent bullets. Remington, Hornady etc.. are BIG and their profits MUST meet the demands of their investors and the stock market or they will lose. It would be easy for them to make EXCELLENT brass>>BUT at what cost? I am afraid they would have to sell it at stratospherical prices to maintain profits in this "current liberal driven government economy" that taxes and regulates the "profit" out of manufacturing! If the corner turns in a few years and we have a more business friendly economic environment, someone MAY attempt to step up to the plate>>>then it will be up to "us" to patronize them! That might be a BIG "IF" to because of the established brass manufacturers that currently make EXCELLENT brass! There is a lot to consider when deciding to invest millions of $$$ to a venture like that.. My 2cents worth..

 

[DukeDuke]

Winchester makes/markets great brass!

 

[masterblaster1]

They do but they don't make enough of it and they don't make 260 Rem cases. But I am a happy Win brass consumer, I am currently rediscovering LC brass in 308, I gotta say I am happy with the LC stuff with some prep and sorting, saves powder too.

Winchester makes/markets great brass!

 

[broncman]

I almost feel like I need to cover my face when I say this...... But I LIKE Federal 308 brass! I get once fired Federal GM match brass from my cousin who is on the local SERT team.

Once I prep it, it is very close to same load data as my Lapua, and last just as long. It does take a little more prep because I do find flash hole burrs, but it is good stuff....

I have bags of new Winchester brass, bunch if hornady and I never use them except in my hunting rifles and to convert to 7-08...

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I will say that in my opinion Winchester brass is as good as Lapua brass except for the fact that Winchester brass requires a lot of preparation before first use whereas all I do to virgin Lapua brass is run a mandrel through the mouth, then prime, load and fire.

For Winchester brass, I have to run the mandrel through the mouth then chamfer and deburr the mouth, pop the chad of the flash hole and uniform the primer pocket. Once all this is done, Winchester brass is just fine.

Doing the above brass prep steps is definitely not my favorite thing to do, even with the RCBS power devices, which is why I buy Lapua brass. I do not mind paying the 30 cents differential (current PVI prices) to not have to do the prep and also not have to throw away a few cases per hundred.

So, in my opinion, it's all in the finish of the virgin brass. Now if Winchester started a line of "premium match" brass where they do the finishing touches and charge accordingly, I would be interested in that brass.

 

[amlevin]

Winchester is great brass! Just have to do your case prep like you do with Lapua or Norma or any other brass out there.

Winchester IS good brass. You just have to buy twice as much of it to get 100 matched cases. With Lapua I can use the entire box just as it comes. I also don't have to uniform the primer pockets or de-burr the flash holes on the Lapua.

Winchester is great brass once you finish the job that the factory started. In the end though it costs just as much as Lapua when you factor in the amount one needs to buy and the extra work.


To answer the original question, people in the US usually base their buying decisions on price. Those in Europe do so on the basis of quality and how long the product will last. Don't know about the rest but I can load my .308 Lapua brass a lot more times than I can the Winchester.

 

[MGYSGT]

Lapua and the rest of those European makers cost twice and in some cases three times the price of brass made in the United States. If Winchester and others turned out ready to fire brass like they do, (and it's not ready to fire IMO), you would be paying the same $100 for USA made brass. Winchester and LC are just fine for me.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

There was an extensive study performed a few years ago by one of the gun rags. It was only .308 brass and they compared all the brands available and performed tests over a long period. The longest lasting brass was Winchester at (IIRC), 14 loadings or so. Lapua was up there also at about 10-11. I wish I could find the issue but it's been a few years now.

I think Lapua found a nice niche in "finished" virgin brass and Winchester and others are happy to leave that very small portion of the ammo/component universe to Lapua and other similar. There probably isn't enough demand to support more players. Most handloaders that I know (outside of competitors) are seeking low cost components and do not load anywhere near as much as I do. They just want to load their own so they can shoot more.

The amount of people who seek the very best brass for competition loading is vanishingly small.

 

[ShootDots]

Hey Deny... I would not agree that the market is too small. Hornady Match (brass) makes EXCELLENT brass dimensionally speaking AND Nosler uses that same brass in their "Custom Brass"... The ONLY bad thing about the Nosler / Hornady Match brass is that it is VERY soft in the web area. I loved that brass for my 308>>>but it got exactly 1 firing in my 6.5 x 284 with "competition" loads! If they made that brass structurally as strong as Lapua or Norma (which some people feel is relatively soft too) brass, I would buy that brass almost exclusively! There IS a market for EXCELLENT, DURABLE brass! But we in America have not figured that out yet. As I stated in my earlier blurb, it will take a "boutique" maker to try his feet in the water and we would need to support him>>>that is going to take some doing..

 

[M-61]

I say that this country (USA) can make the best of anything. The operative word is 'CAN'. We are still the only nation to put humans on the moon and bring them back.
What I think happens here is the accountants get involved and it all comes down to profit/loss. If the numbers do not work it won't be done.
I'm not sure that being the engineer pushing for better (or the best) brass made is exactly an enviable job at this moment in time in this country. Could be a real hard sell.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Hey Deny... I would not agree that the market is too small. Hornady Match (brass) makes EXCELLENT brass dimensionally speaking AND Nosler uses that same brass in their "Custom Brass"... The ONLY bad thing about the Nosler / Hornady Match brass is that it is VERY soft in the web area. I loved that brass for my 308>>>but it got exactly 1 firing in my 6.5 x 284 with "competition" loads! If they made that brass structurally as strong as Lapua or Norma (which some people feel is relatively soft too) brass, I would buy that brass almost exclusively! There IS a market for EXCELLENT, DURABLE brass! But we in America have not figured that out yet. As I stated in my earlier blurb, it will take a "boutique" maker to try his feet in the water and we would need to support him>>>that is going to take some doing..

Ben, I hear what you are saying but you should realize that I intentionally left out Hornady for the specific reason you mention, among others. Steady availability and lot size were other issues.

At this point, I only use Lapua and Winchester ammo in my F-TR rifles and I get far more than one "match" load in each type. For Winchester the minuscule niche market of competitive shooters is probably not worth the extra trouble, but one can hope.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Properly prepped and maintained, Winchester brass will perform quite well.

 

[MK 19]

I started out shooting Winchester brass, it was good, but required allot of work

Then I bought some Nosler, much better, I'm at 16 loads on the original 100 with only loosing 5 cases so far, much less work then the Win

In the shortage I could only find Lapua, I am in love and I will never buy any other brass again, basically ready to go out of the box, weights are already sorted, all I have to do is pull then out of the box and load them

 

[Sling]

In my match guns I just don`t want (good) brass, I want the best. So thats why I use Lapua and Norma. No brass made in America can compare to those two. I don`t want to buy 100pcs of Winchester, Remington, Federal, or Hornady to only get about 40-60pcs of match brass. With as much money we spend on our match rifles, the cost of brass isn`t a concern. If I`m just shooting varmints, deer, or just blasting AR`s or AK`s, any brass will work. But in my match guns, I won`t run American made brass. I want every advantage possible.

 

[XTR]

One thing to remember, when people start talking about how many loads they have on their brass, you don't know how they are loading it. I trashed 60 Lapua small primer 308s after the first use this yr, and there are another 140 or so that I douibt will last 3 cycles. Sure, I was running them a bit too warm. The point is comparing your brass life to mine proves nothing other than I was loading too hot.

For the most part I run W-W, and as to the brass prep, I do the same steps on my Lapua that I do on my W-W so it really makes little difference to me.

I can't see the difference in Lapua and W-W on the targets. W-W has a bit more capacity. With the right bullet powder combination that can make a difference one way or the other.

 

[bigedp51]

There was an extensive study performed a few years ago by one of the gun rags. It was only .308 brass and they compared all the brands available and performed tests over a long period. The longest lasting brass was Winchester at (IIRC), 14 loadings or so. Lapua was up there also at about 10-11. I wish I could find the issue but it's been a few years now.

bayou shooter, if this is the test you are referring to below then you are a prime candidate for alzheimer's testing.

Lapua, Remington and Norma out performed Winchester brass. ;D

The problem with the test below was the headspace setting of the rifle was not stated and the amount of shoulder bump was not given. The .308 cases below were resized with the die making hard contact with the shell holder and the press reaching cam over. The rifle used was a new Savage .308 with a standard commercial chamber and if minimum shoulder bump would have been used the cases would have lasted longer.

That being said Winchester brass used in milsurp rifles with larger diameter chambers and longer headspace do not last as long as Remington brass in the same chamber.