Why a Persistent Lack of Gunsmiths?

[Phil3]

It seems to me, that for quite some years, gunsmiths and custom gun makers have been in short supply. At the present time, the demand far outweighs the supply of smiths and custom gun maker's production capacity, but wonder why there are not more people entering the field to fill this void. Fear the demand may fall off? Too much effort and time to learn the skills and become proficient? Too much capital investment in machinery? Insufficient space? Or...?

And not just guns. There are long waits on some rests, and it seems we are always willing to buy another tool if a better mousetrap appears. I have a milling machine and lathe and an sitting on the sidelines myself, but will make some prototypes for a couple of tools I would want, but don't exist (that I can see). It could be interesting to see what demand appears.

Phil

 

[CatShooter]

It seems to me, that for quite some years, gunsmiths and custom gun makers have been in short supply. At the present time, the demand far outweighs the supply of smiths and custom gun maker's production capacity, but wonder why there are not more people entering the field to fill this void. Fear the demand may fall off? Too much effort and time to learn the skills and become proficient? Too much capital investment in machinery? Insufficient space? Or...?

And not just guns. There are long waits on some rests, and it seems we are always willing to buy another tool if a better mousetrap appears. I have a milling machine and lathe and an sitting on the sidelines myself, but will make some prototypes for a couple of tools I would want, but don't exist (that I can see). It could be interesting to see what demand appears.

Phil

I spent 7 years as a gunsmith. I left and went back to college.

1 - Unless you have a reputation, the money sucks.... and it takes many years to get a reputation.

2 - Large capital investment, with no money coming in, and the banks will NOT loan you the money to start.

3 - Most gunsmithing schools do not give you the education to do excellent work, so you might be doomed from the start, unless you can work with a top 'smith for a few years. If not, you will wind up doing minor parts replacement.

4 - Markets are spotty. In some places, you might be busy, but two states over, you could starve, no matter how good you are.

 

[navyrad8r]

tag,
wanna see where this goes first...and gather my thoughts (shouldn't take long)
cheers,
Doc

 

[Jim See]

not enough people with the ambition or drive to make a go of it. I have had my shop "on the market" since february and have had quite a few capable young gunsmiths look at it but they fail to take the plunge. Debt seems to scare them a bit, and it could also be a lack of personal confidence that makes them weary. I have literally offered the building property and all the equipment and tooling to a couple guys who i liked for $150,000. They couldn't follow thru? lack of drive to write a buisness plan and go to a banker.

I have kicked it around with a couple other smiths who have been to my shop, know my financials, and know the rifles coming out of the shop. they all agree the price is right for a step into it and build rifles 100% in house.

boggles my mind, i don't know what else to say.

 

[Jim See]

I may be taking things for granted with my last post, I was 36 years old with a good share of production, management and business experience when started Center Shot Rifles. I was 100% confident in my mechanical skills, and had saved up the capitol investment to start the shop. I dove in head first and built a business on pure determination. On the sacrifices of time with my wife and children. It was by no means easy, yet I wouldn't trade the experience for anything in the world. As far as the income it can be very good if you do the work, i was never disappointed.

 

[holstil]

I was talking to a smith not long ago about this. From what I gather it sounded like the bullcrap to income ratio was in the wrong direction.

Jim

 

[ShootDots]

I think there could be another side to this coin... Since the vast majority of manufacturing jobs have set sail for business "friendlier" countries, many of our "high level skilled professions" have died on the vine over the years! I have two friends who live in New York State. New York is one of those states that is "nigh on to being like Detroit".. There are NO REAL JOBS in the state that pay worth a @&*%$$, EXCEPT for machinists, welders and other HIGH SKILLED labor. They go UNFILLED because there is no qualified applicants to fill those positions. Maybe the lack of really good riflesmiths is due to a lack of really good machinists! I don't know>>but that may be a real possibility!

 

[shortgrass]

Takes much more than being a machinist to be a good gunsmith or riflesmith. Machinists don't do 'hand work', they do machine work. Being competent at 'hand work' is a must. It, also, takes drive and a good business sense. Takes alot more hours than most realize to run a business. Most have no idea how many $$$ can be involved in tooling and tools,, until they think about it. Best to 'finance' yourself and avoid borrowing, if possible. The schools vary from "just the basics" to "if you follow through, and hone the skills they taught, applying for the guild is possible". I've done fairly well, over the past 20 years, but, the BS factor is high and climbing (everyone's become a 'sniper'!). Many start, most fail.

 

[jonbearman]

Every business has the bs factor,try building engines for a living.The BS never stops.We get cornered on the,I can get that part at jegs way cheaper.We sell our parts with only a minor mark up and all the customer's cry and cry and when the engine is done,they don't pick them up for months sometimes and expect you to carry the load.Basically many people hire the work out and try to change the terms and we look like the enemy when we stick fast to the deal.It is the same all over no matter what the business is today. I have a yamaha outboard I completely rebuilt from a basket case for a whopping 1300 plus tax. The owners are trying to say we are ripping them off.I give up with dealing with direct customers when it comes to doing rv type work .They have to have it yesterday and when the weather goes bad they wont even answer our calls for them to pickup and pay the final bill.I have paid local gunsmiths good money to do work and I get it back with the same problem. Now as a machinist who can do his own handwork,I do 99 percent of it with my mill and lathe.I have dealt with people like gre-tan and he gets the work out in a reasonable time. That is the key reasonable.When my stuff sits untouched for a year it pisses me off.I realize it all takes time,but when I stop by to check in and the smith is standing around for an hour bs'ing instead of working it upsets me.This is why alot of fellas turn to all ready built rifles and just change the barrels out which takes considerably less time.I am too old to wait 2 years for a rifle to enjoy this sport.I am not saying all smiths treat you like that but alot of the guys just take there time doing it and it is a real disappointment when you have had 2 birthdays go by and get excuses.Pardon my rant but when I read that machinists do no hand work it mad me irritated.I apologize for the rant.

 

[Taildrag15X]

I found the most common problem is this world of "instant gratification" and lack of a will to sacrifice.

I lived in a late 60's 14'x65' trailer, drove a 20 year old car, worked 12+ hrs. a day, 7 days a week when we started ABC Refrigeration in 1984 without the aid of a bank.

 

[areaone]

I have been in sales (Real Estate) for 40 years, and yes you are right, the younger buyers want "instant gratification" demand the impossible, pout, bitch and whine when it is not the way they want it. They have no money for a down payment, borrow from Mom and Dad 2 K use federal subsidized loans, default on a HicCup and think they can back out of a contract "just because". I grew up-college-in the 60's, thought my generation-Hippies, war protestors was something. Hell, they can not hold a candle to todays SPOILED generation. Dealing with the public and all the BS that goes with it, just is not worth the hassle and the dissapontment I have in a large segment of the American and non American public anymore. Hello Retirement. My son in his mid 30's, is the exception, he works for a Fortune 50 Co. in a management position and he is of the same opinion as I am, he interviews new hire candidates and can not believe in this economy what these just out of college graduates are demanding, and ofcourse they do not get it or the job. Back home in the Basement with Mom and Dad, here they come. Dealing with today's demanding Public takes a special person, thanks to the Smiths out there today who will tolerate and make every effort to please the client. I have been fortunate to find those type of Smiths.

 

[dickn52]

Unfortunately, I am about to run into one of the 'others' I fear. Dropped off a rifle to have some work done. Little stuff that might require an hour or so on a lathe heays, "machine time" he calls it. I'm ok with it. When they wrote up the ticket, they left a completition date off and any thing that looked like a quote. I asked and he smiled and said "I have no idea when it will be done. Maybe a week and maybe two months" and 'who knows in advance what work like this can cost?' I'm about to be hosed I think, but I hope not. This guy comes highly recommended by a lot of people, so I'm hoping...

 

[areaone]

Could not get my equipment out of there fast enough and on my way to some other smith. No time frame, no Price limit, Caveat Emptor.

 

[ShootDots]

I also think there is yet another reason why some of y'all have to wait, wait, wait for some riflesmith to finish.. Here where I live in Texas, there are MANY excellent 'smiths. I do something many people do not. I buy ALL my components myself ( I always buy in advance) and take them to my 'smith and usually inside a month it is finished. I also know he carries a supply of barrels that most people use>>eliminating one of the "problems". I know that in New York, there are nowhere near the riflesmiths there are in Texas.. That will put pressure on the 'smiths that do exist there.. Maybe you could place a call to one of the riflesmiths here and talk with them about building a rifle. Hey it's a thought..

 

[DennisH]

I have read all the comments above and can't really disagree with any of them. One CNC takes more money to purchase than an auto mechanic's complete tool set. Both professions pay about the same.

Starting off as an apprentice and becoming a gunsmith (or an auto technician) takes time and dedication from a person while you trying to live on a minimal income.

The main thing, you must build a reputation and this takes time. I know a few of the best smiths around, and the ones who solely stick to gunsmithing barely make a living. Most have a second job that carries them, then they work 1/2 the night doing what they love.

Then if you make it to the point you need extra help, this starts a complete new situation, finding someone competent that is willing to learn while earning a little more than minimum wage.

Not naming any names, but when I see post where companies don't respond and take too long to repair a firearm, I think of and know the cost of running a business. You have to work to pay the bills, and hiring someone to manage the day to day operations just doesn't fit into the budget.

I wish I had the answer,

JMO, Dennis

PS: I have an automotive background and have several friends who have "mini" shops set up in their garages. Gunsmithing is what they love, but they do it as a hobby.

 

[jhord]

This is directed more to Jim See, but others can chime in if they know the answer. What's insurance run per year for a gunsmith shop? In today's "legal environment" insurance costs hamper the establishment/growth of any small business, and I imagine gunsmithing would be worst of all. I've mulled getting into the firearms biz but the liability aspect of things and banks' general aversion to firearms at this time make it improbable.

 

[CatShooter]

This is directed more to Jim See, but others can chime in if they know the answer. What's insurance run per year for a gunsmith shop? In today's "legal environment" insurance costs hamper the establishment/growth of any small business, and I imagine gunsmithing would be worst of all. I've mulled getting into the firearms biz but the liability aspect of things and banks' general aversion to firearms at this time make it improbable.

I pay $4,000 a year.

 

[ARshuter]

In November I will start my 21st year as a gunsmith. A little background....I started at Pa. Gunsmithing school, went through a divorce and didn't complete the school but still had the love of guns in my blood. After all the BS of the divorce I started to work with a well known smith in the area. Two years into that he decided he was going to move to another state and "get a real job that pays real money and work lots less hours".
After Don moved I decide to start my own shop. Took over a lot of the work load he had let behind. At first it was working out great, busy all the time, but still not making any real money due to financing the business myself. On a daily basis I here from my wife about money. While I sit here typing this I look around my shop at all the guns I have finished, over 2 years ago for some, wishing I had the $8,500.00 plus that is waiting to be picked up by the owners, that's just repairs and bluing jobs, not the full out builds that make payments of $10.00 or $20.00 a month, on a $3000.00 or more build. Then there is always my personal favorite. The drunken customer that comes in bitchin in front of a store full of customers about how the gun you just repaired won't shoot for shit. Only to find out he was using the wrong ammo, jambing 22-250 in a 308! Or how bout the customer that wants a custom build xxx barrel, yyy action, and zzz stock, you tell them it's going to be a least a year and a half till you get these parts. OK OK no problem. 1 month later he's calling wanting to know how far along you are on his build, then 2 weeks later calls again, then starts bad mouthing you to very one in ear shot. I could go on for hours.
Not to mention insurance at $6,000.00 per year

 

[armistemjim]

since the sixty's the education in our country has moved away from hand crafted work to machine done to computer done. young people today want a job were they don't work but get paid. i searched for young men who would learn how to create with the file and hand tools, who could look at something and duplicate it with hand done work. i have a mill and lathes and they are hand operated. i love the challenge of creating what I want from raw materials can i even get my grandson to learn my shop and tools no, to him a computer game is more important than a day in the shop with grandpa. he likes to use what i build but has no desire to learn how to do this for himself. i blame the education shift away from mandatory shop classes and the push for college instead of trade school as much as i do those who do not spend time creating a desire to learn in their children, the let the school do it gives us the liberal thinking generation we have today.
preacher Jim

 

[chino1969]

Just my two cents but the great gunsmiths are besieged by idiots, whose business they would rather do without. I have been in a very good smith's shop when the calls come in and it amazes me how stupid and arrogant some people really are. I deal with two well known exceptional gunsmiths. They deliver, I pay and I don't bother them with endless questions about delivery. Surprisingly, the turn around is very quick. Why is that? I pride myself on being an exceptional customer. I do my own homework, finalize any questions with the smith, place my order and wait for the completion call; that's it.