Who else is bothered?

[Turkeytider]

Friend…a history lesson.
For all the guys that bitch & moan about lack of US made match quality ammo, The Federal experiment is a lasting legacy.
They invested big $ , R&D, specialty tooling, and absolutely not nearly enough people bought it to make it financially viable. They took a bath, sold off everything and absolutely ZERO could induce any domestic company to relive that disaster.
As referenced….you want a Porsche, you go to Germany…you want a Ferrari, you go to Italy….at least in this lifetime.

I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of 22 LR ammunition that’s fired in the US is done by folks who barely, if at all, know or care about rimfire competitions and the need for high quality match grade ammunition for those endeavors. As bad as it may be for 22 LR, 17 HMR is far worse.

 

[Fuj]

So, who believes that if a company based in the US produced .22lr match ammunition in the US that they would buy it over other sources and be dominant in competition?

Isn't that the upshot of this thread?

There's hype. There's reality. This is a path previously traveled.

Yeah, It's kind of like anything that has a long history, My uncle shot
.22 shorts in the what was called "church leaques" back in the 60's.
the way I understood it, The club hosting the match provided the
ammo for it, and always Eley. He shot great targets with the Winchester
Super X .22 shorts but had to use the club issued ammo at competition's.
I think if anyone was going to commit, it would be Olin......

 

[Short Round]

I'd say it's a market driven decision. If they made ammunition to compete with the match grade ammunition already on the market, it would likely be low demand due to the cost.
Why make the investment when the return on that investment will be excessively long?
You'd fire your investment advisor/401K fund manager for decisions like that. Same reasoning.

Not long ago and with the CZ, I had some forgotten and rat holed
Remington Target. The 50 round box had a price tag on it of 87 cents.
It grouped as good as some of the high end ammo but not as good
as my R-50. Only had a box and a half. Shame.....

Back in the 80’s shooting my Ruger Mark2 government the Remington Target ammo was acceptible for the job. I don’t even know if they make it anymore. I used to buy that or the Winchester target for pistol work as I wasn’t good enough to blame the ammo. 90’s era cardboard 50 round boxes of Golden Bullet were much much better than the milk carton packages. I always figured they put the floor sweeping junk in the milk cartons as the shipping was going to loosen crimps in the milk cartons anyhow.

 

[Short Round]

I'm also seeing shooters at matches asking for "cheap" ammo matches, due to the ever increasing cost of quality match ammo. I'm not opposed to this route, but I still like shooting the best that my rifles perform the best with, and don't really enjoy shooting for, basically luck, in a match. Although I have been the recipient of luck in several matches thru the years.

I don’t shoot the small bore league but the guys at my club will shoot good ammo if they can get it but most were shooting just about anything affordable during covid and before. If it was .22 long rifle they considered it.

 

[TRSR8]

Yeah, It's kind of like anything that has a long history, My uncle shot
.22 shorts in the what was called "church leaques" back in the 60's.
the way I understood it, The club hosting the match provided the
ammo for it, and always Eley. He shot great targets with the Winchester
Super X .22 shorts but had to use the club issued ammo at competition's.
I think if anyone was going to commit, it would be Olin......

You might not realize it but some of the big time money matches shot before WWI were indoor gallery matches shot indoors with shorts like the famous Zettler brothers matches shot below their shop in NYC, under the street to across the street.
Guys like Harry Pope were regulars shooting high grade purpose built rifles.
I have one, a Stevens 49, scope only, 30” bbl, 1” at the muzzle, 22short, offhand rifle.
Before they ceased production,I bought a few bricks of ELEY olympic shorts which are amazingly accurate out of that rifle…..mostly long forgotten history.

 

[xswanted]

I don’t care what anyone says, the market is there.


Between all of the disciplines of “precision” rimfire shooting to include everything from benchrest to NRL/PRS there are a lot of people buying top tier ammo.


If a US manufacturer made a line of 22 ammo to complete with Eley or Lapua they’d sell all they could make and more.

Especially if they could do it at a few bucks lower per box.

Lapua is gone before it hits the shelf, Eley is a little more readily available.

I don’t believe for a second the likes of CCI or Federal couldn’t come up with a way to do this in a cost effective and profitable manner.

 

[WyleWD]

If we EVER want this idea of top shelf American made MATCH grade rime-fire ammo to see the light of day, then we as the community of people who are going to use this ammo need to tell the manufacturers that we WANT it…

Agree^^^^. And to go a step farther, It's my position that the whole bunch of rimfire manufacturers NEED to up their quality and accuracy level. As an example.... given the thought that a very considerable number of shooters start out shooting with grandpa or dad buying a 22 rifle for them to build their skills with. Trying to teach a kid just starting out about marksmanship and accuracy with the current poor quality ammo currently produced and sold will end up frustrating both the beginner AND the person training them.

If the trainer can't achieve accuracy to show the beginner "how it's done", how will this situation ever work out well?? 2" groups at 50 yards is unacceptable to say the least, then add the flyers to this event and it's way off the rails. JME.WD

 

[SteveOak]

Remington does own Eley, the boxes have “Remington” printed on them.

I know this is AI, but;

No, Remington does not own Eley. They are independent companies that have partnered to produce specific products.
Key details about their relationship:

• A partnership, not ownership: Remington has licensed the Eley brand and leveraged Eley's expertise to produce certain grades of high-quality, competition-grade .22 Long Rifle ammunition.
• The origin of the confusion: This co-branded ammunition, labeled "Remington-Eley," has created the impression that the companies are linked by ownership. However, Eley is a separate British manufacturer that specializes in rimfire ammunition.
• Different owners: After Remington Outdoor Company went bankrupt in 2020 and was broken up, the different brands were sold to new owners. Eley has also had its own change in ownership, most recently in 2022 when it was acquired by Lunele Limited.

I am glad that ANYONE makes good rimfire ammo. I have 6 different types of RF ammo, all are from a non US companies.

Interesting that the premium CF ammo I am aware of, Federal, Berger, although Sierra didn't fare so well, is US made. Is it possible that the European market has a preponderance of RF shooters compared to CF shooter, and the US is the opposite? More CF shooters in the US, or at least more dollars worth of CF factory ammo purchased than RF ammo?

I find it interesting also that the best bullets come from US based manufacturers. Yes, I know NAMMO owns Berger.

Powder, while not European, over there and not here.

 

[Knotwild]

I want something that shoots like Lapua , Eley and SK and enough inventory that I can lot test without buying blind or waiting months before there is an inventory to buy from. I’m willing to pay more for it than bulk plinking ammo. The U.S. ammo industry is not resilient just like our amino acids and vitamins that we consume and are sourced from foreign companies.

No offense intended, but a lot of people (like me) don’t have that kind of money - for equipment or ammunition. I’m splurging if I buy some SK. Plus niether I or my guns are capable of the accuracy potential of top flight ammunition. But if I take my 1416 HB and hit the bowl of a plastic spoon at 180yds with 75% of my shots using Norma - I just had a satisfying day. So given market shocks and inflation I don’t really care who makes it if I can get my hands on it. I doubt a startup of premium rimfire ammo would make profit for a long time.

 

[mike mccormick]

The old Federal ultra match ( UM1) was pretty good, but as David Joe said, it's sales didn't meet expectations. That said, in the 80s, remington match and winchester T22 were far better than any of the American offerings today. The last time I bought some run of the mill 22 ammo, it had so many failures to fire, it would have been cheaper to buy good ammo.

 

[ISS]

I recently talked with a friend from my old Precision Shooting Magazine days. He retired from Savage Arms as their custom shop supervisor. About 20 years ago they looked at producing ammunition. RF and CF. They learned, in 2003 it would take ten million dollars and two years to produce (by trial and error) match grade ammunition. At that time, I had a Hall rifle Alan built me. I was shooting Wolf Match and buying a brick for ten bucks. I would buy three cases to get that price and splitting it with a shooting buddy. I had a rimfire gauge, IIRC; that Neil Jones made. Less than .003" in a brick, but each pile of .001" shot to a 1/4-inch different impact group at a 25-yard indoor range. Weighing made such a small difference I quit doing that.

Today, it would likely be thirty-million dollars and three years. You could analyze the bullet alloy pretty easy, same for the brass and powder. The issue most here miss, is the problem with people. So many young people today have the attention span of a Parakeet. They play video games and pay for the cheat keys after trying a game for a week or less.

I have a 38 year old Nephew and his three year younger brother that are gamers. The younger one spent forty-six hundred dollars for a water cooled super computer just to play games on. He gets a new game, plays it for a week, if he can't win. He then pays fifty-bucks for the cheat keys so he can win in an hour or two.

They wouldn't sit at a machine and make match grade 22 ammunition eight hours a day, five days a week in a plant if you paid them very well. Too boring, too much sameness repetition. Hell, I can't get either of them to load their own rifle or pistol ammunition. I've tried many times.

I have two very accurate 22's. An early Model 37, and a shiny new Newman Precision bolt gun. For the cost of the current match stuff I can make cast bullet loads for my custom .308.

Rich

 

[1813benny]

The old Federal ultra match ( UM1) was pretty good, but as David Joe said, it's sales didn't meet expectations. That said, in the 80s, remington match and winchester T22 were far better than any of the American offerings today. The last time I bought some run of the mill 22 ammo, it had so many failures to fire, it would have been cheaper to buy good ammo.

The fact is that the Federal Ultramatch was actually selling well, however the product was cut when they were sold to Blount circa 1997 and the bean counters killed it. Not enough margin vs other products.

 

[Fuj]

and the bean counters killed it.

Pretty much sums it up......

 

[J.d. Popkes]

Am I bothered, yes. Am I surprised and confused, no. It’s very simple in my opinion. Two reasons.

The market will not support the price of investment and startup for this ammunition. Demand isn’t there? We’re a tiny group!!

Or/and, government regulations that have chased off every other form of manufacturing, as well as paying people to not work. And dozens of other things that fall under this government category.

Simple as that, period, it’s not rocket surgery. If its possible to make a profit, in the USA, the product will be here, even if it’s illegal. Always. We just don’t make it here.

 

[FNSafari]

For the same reason Rem can put out a rifle without any rifling in the bore
or no primary extraction on the bolts.
(Pride in Quality has declined with our current generation of young employees)
If they only get 1 complaint out of 1000, they're still raking in the dough
(kinda like - If an Oil company has to pay a $10,000 fine every day for drilling in the sea, but is making
$1000000 per day, its worth it
Foreign Mfgr's can and HAVE capitolized on this fact.

IMO, its not the individual employees. It's how the company decides to engineer the product then how it goes about monitoring quality (QC) in the manufacturing process. The lack of pride in quality is right at the top of management down. Sad.

I think it was for the 1992 Olympics that Federal produced just about the last of their high end UM series .22 ammo. Fine, fine stuff. I still have a bunch of it and it works great in some of my rifles. Not likely to ever reappear.

 

[blades]

way way back Olin did make match 22. markV i think it was. stuff was very good at least for the indoor leagues. I never had any that I could use for out door comp. as by the time i learned what not to do it was long gone. I also remember when Agulia started up the first output was very good in the indoor matches. by the time i shot that case up the dies/machines evidently had worn enough that the accuracy was no-longer there. it was on par with Eley club or a bit better at 1/2 the cost. Caveat, Rimfire rifles are finicky about ammo, temp sensitive also. I ve had some very good Feochee ( spelling?)ammo in a couple of my units out to 50 yard BR shoots. units are match guns specific to particular comps each has their own diet that they like.

 

[houligan]

I still think that if Eley and Lapua can do it, so can Federal, Remington, Winchester and CCI. Call me biased but I also think that a bunch of college boys got hired and have been implementing the stuff they learned out of a book and by some old professor. College education leaves a lot to be desired in the real world. This applies to making good ammo and everything else made in America. I like the comment " attention span of a parakeet". So very true! Don't try to find out how Eley and Lapua do it! That's apparently not in the "book". With all respect to the person that believes it will take 30 million to start making quality ammo, I disagree. The current tooling will probably work fine, with a little attention to the critical parts like die's and tolerances. Better lead can certainly be found and so can powder and priming. May cost a few pennies per piece but may also lead to better ammo. I believe sorting by lot number is an important key. Again, the American companies need to find out how the UK/European companies accomplish QUALITY sorting. All this could lead to possibly having three or four levels of quality ammo and NOT spending thirty million dollars to achieve.

 

[7315br]

way way back Olin did make match 22. markV i think it was. stuff was very good at least for the indoor leagues. I never had any that I could use for out door comp. as by the time i learned what not to do it was long gone. I also remember when Agulia started up the first output was very good in the indoor matches. by the time i shot that case up the dies/machines evidently had worn enough that the accuracy was no-longer there. it was on par with Eley club or a bit better at 1/2 the cost. Caveat, Rimfire rifles are finicky about ammo, temp sensitive also. I ve had some very good Feochee ( spelling?)ammo in a couple of my units out to 50 yard BR shoots. units are match guns specific to particular comps each has their own diet that they like.

Many years ago (early 70's) I shot Winchester Mark III Super Match ammo in my Anschutz 1413 position rifle in Alaska. It was really accurate ammo for the indoor four position shoots I participated in. Won several matches shooting this ammo. Never shot it at longer ranges though.

 

[CharlieNC]

I still think that if Eley and Lapua can do it, so can Federal, Remington, Winchester and CCI. Call me biased but I also think that a bunch of college boys got hired and have been implementing the stuff they learned out of a book and by some old professor. College education leaves a lot to be desired in the real world. This applies to making good ammo and everything else made in America. I like the comment " attention span of a parakeet". So very true! Don't try to find out how Eley and Lapua do it! That's apparently not in the "book". With all respect to the person that believes it will take 30 million to start making quality ammo, I disagree. The current tooling will probably work fine, with a little attention to the critical parts like die's and tolerances. Better lead can certainly be found and so can powder and priming. May cost a few pennies per piece but may also lead to better ammo. I believe sorting by lot number is an important key. Again, the American companies need to find out how the UK/European companies accomplish QUALITY sorting. All this could lead to possibly having three or four levels of quality ammo and NOT spending thirty million dollars to achieve.

You are correct in that the know-how to produce a quality product does not lie within a book, but it can prepare one with the background to better understand and learn. On the other hand testing at the end as a major component to achieve quality went out of vogue in the 80's and was replaced with building quality into the product from the very first step, and relying on grading as a major step is an admission that the knowledge is lacking.

 

[justinp61]

IMHO, they can make it but choose not to, not enough profit to justify the costs of tooling up for it.