He needs to go to snipers hide, they shoot the 223 valkrye to 2100 yards
Which Scale Check Weights?
- Thread starter AROKHUNTER
- Start date
The exact weight of your check weight is not important unless you are selling gold or silver of even diamonds. Then you need the best check weight you can get and it must be at the same temperature each time you use it and be certified. For loads used in firearms, get something that weights well over the load weight you are using and use it each time you check, I use 30 grams which = 462.97 grains (1gr = 15.432g). I have no idea where the little weight came from, it was in a pile of junk I had laying around. You set your scale to a weight and develop your loads from that setting and don't change it. Don't spend 100$ or more on check weights, you just don't need it. We are after consistency, not the exact weight each time we use the scale.
I check each day I use my fx=120 and it always gets the same reading, 462.97g. I know, then, each time I weigh 40g of 4895 I am really close to that and I get the same amount of powder I did the day before. By the way, to get exactly 40.00g, I have to select short or long sticks of powder on that scale. I don't do it that way, I just round the load up to 40.02g and go on.
I check each day I use my fx=120 and it always gets the same reading, 462.97g. I know, then, each time I weigh 40g of 4895 I am really close to that and I get the same amount of powder I did the day before. By the way, to get exactly 40.00g, I have to select short or long sticks of powder on that scale. I don't do it that way, I just round the load up to 40.02g and go on.
dcali
Bullet Maker
Depending on what you want, check out the test weights at McMaster Carr. They have many available and are of industrial quality from affordable to ridiculous. None in grains though, if I recall correctly. But you can get perfectly good certified 100g weights (for calibrating a Fx-120i for example)
If you have Never used a Ballistic calculator, or chronographed your shells .There is no hope for you at distance,
That brings up a point that I have been wondering about. Way back when I was in the Navy we taught and were taught that mechanical torque wrenches were the most accurate in the middle of their range. If you needed to use 50 Lbs of torque you gabbed the 0 - 100 pound wrench and not the 0 -300. Supposedly the cal lab calibrated the 0 - 100 at 50 pounds, and the 1- 300 was calibrated at 150 pounds. Would the same principle apply to electronic scales? Since my pan and normal charge is around 12.350 grams wouldn't it be it better to calibrate using a 10 gram checkweight than a 100 gram if my scale allows me to change the setting ? Testing that theory myself indicated that it seems to be more precise but I would like to hear it from a instrumentation person
edit or would it be better to calibrate mid way through the scales capacity. It's a Tree KHR 123 which has a 123 gram capacity. Would a 60 gram calibration be ideal or would it be better to calibrate near my normal pan/charge weight ?
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Short story, when I came here in early 2011, I was already somewhat accomplished at banging steel, to 2000 yards, and not huge plate. I read and interacted where I could, but in the back of my head, even though these guys could shoot 3" groups at 1K on command, I wondered if a single one of these putz's could start at 100 yards and hit targets to 1200 without vapor locking. Kicker here, I never inquired, and with time common sense prevailed and I realized I was not the first to do it anyway. They got here somehow, and were shooting more accurate loads than I could build, what gave me the idea that their loads may not get better coming back in to their shooting position.
My advice would be to listen up. Remember the old E.F. Hutton commercial? There are a few EF's here posting.
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
It helps to know your audience thats for sure.
4xforfun
Gold $$ Contributor
^^^^THIS^^^^
Been thinking about this. Here's two things that can cause that.
One is bullet BC spread caused by slight unbalances that increases drag.
The other is the muzzle axis had about 2 MOA spread in vertical line of fire. Maybe caused by different amounts of recoil during barrel time as the muzzle rises.
Well, this thread took off in its own after I started it. Lol. After reading all of the comments and input, I just purchased a set of Lyman check weights. They should be here next week. I think they will serve there intended purpose well.
Thanks for all of the comments!
Thanks for all of the comments!
Your thoughts as to what is creating the vertical in that situation...
Or use a tuner to compensate for velocity spread.
From what I have seen it is all about finding the proper powder and amount, coupled with the correct seating depth and the right primer
My ammo chronos below 10 FPS and sometimes below 5FPS but I still end up with shots in the 9 ring and the occasional 8 or even 7 if I misjudge the mirage or miss a windshift. I am of the opinion that devoting that money to be able to spend time on the firing line making smoke and noise helps tighten those groups and eliminate flyers more than pimping out my loading bench. When you have limited money like I do you want to spend it on what delivers the most improvement on the target.
My ammo chronos below 10 FPS and sometimes below 5FPS but I still end up with shots in the 9 ring and the occasional 8 or even 7 if I misjudge the mirage or miss a windshift. I am of the opinion that devoting that money to be able to spend time on the firing line making smoke and noise helps tighten those groups and eliminate flyers more than pimping out my loading bench. When you have limited money like I do you want to spend it on what delivers the most improvement on the target.
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First criteria should be 'Sameness'. Long term sameness.
A precision mass standard is only used to calibrate working standard, the ones you touch when calibrating everyday devices.
Precise standards are made from a non-magnetic (or nearly so) Stainless Steel and are reported with respect to
'apparent mass vs a stated density' at standard conditions. It used to be App Mass Vs Brass, and when changing bases a correction is required.
Find a mass that isn't susceptible to nicks and scratches or corrosion. A FMJ bullet if protected from abuse would be fine for a 'test weight'. I use this for my 22 Nolser loads around 10 carats or so. I think I know the weight of this 'adjusted dime' to at least +/- 0.002 grains.
Also remember that when comparing two equal or nearly equal weights, the balance/scale is basically an uncalibrated substitution device. Weigh a 31 grain test weight, weigh 31 grains of powder. Should indicate the same (except for high precision work with materials less dense than the test weight).
For a scale that can weigh to 1500 grains, and your target weight is 30 grains or 80 or 150, then a test weigh near those values would be best if you want to have confidence in your measuring process. You were probably sent a 50 gram or 100 gram weight. That sets the full scale value which is likely never used. If 30 grains indicates 30.05 grains (indicates high) then you could even pad your full scale calibration to get a more accurate reading at lower values.
If you buy a cheap weight like off Amazon or Ebay, expect it to be Chrome Plated Magnetic Steel. Sort of OK.
Accuracy grades of M1, or even M2 would be adequate for all but the most anal reloader
If you bought a 'Set' with multiples of 1,2,2,5 or 1,2,3,5 then combinations can be used as a confidence check for any single weight.
Sure a tenth or two grains isn't gonna matter much at all but with a little attention to technique is will be so far into the noise that it WON'T MATTER AT ALL. Buy that $$$ 0.02 grain scale, a full scale cal weight, and a check weight near each of your most common/important values.
EX-NASA Senior Metrologist (not the weather kind)
A precision mass standard is only used to calibrate working standard, the ones you touch when calibrating everyday devices.
Precise standards are made from a non-magnetic (or nearly so) Stainless Steel and are reported with respect to
'apparent mass vs a stated density' at standard conditions. It used to be App Mass Vs Brass, and when changing bases a correction is required.
Find a mass that isn't susceptible to nicks and scratches or corrosion. A FMJ bullet if protected from abuse would be fine for a 'test weight'. I use this for my 22 Nolser loads around 10 carats or so. I think I know the weight of this 'adjusted dime' to at least +/- 0.002 grains.
Also remember that when comparing two equal or nearly equal weights, the balance/scale is basically an uncalibrated substitution device. Weigh a 31 grain test weight, weigh 31 grains of powder. Should indicate the same (except for high precision work with materials less dense than the test weight).
For a scale that can weigh to 1500 grains, and your target weight is 30 grains or 80 or 150, then a test weigh near those values would be best if you want to have confidence in your measuring process. You were probably sent a 50 gram or 100 gram weight. That sets the full scale value which is likely never used. If 30 grains indicates 30.05 grains (indicates high) then you could even pad your full scale calibration to get a more accurate reading at lower values.
If you buy a cheap weight like off Amazon or Ebay, expect it to be Chrome Plated Magnetic Steel. Sort of OK.
Accuracy grades of M1, or even M2 would be adequate for all but the most anal reloader
If you bought a 'Set' with multiples of 1,2,2,5 or 1,2,3,5 then combinations can be used as a confidence check for any single weight.
Sure a tenth or two grains isn't gonna matter much at all but with a little attention to technique is will be so far into the noise that it WON'T MATTER AT ALL. Buy that $$$ 0.02 grain scale, a full scale cal weight, and a check weight near each of your most common/important values.
EX-NASA Senior Metrologist (not the weather kind)
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The U.S. Penny?
Until you have a tolerance for that best bang for the buck test weight that costs one cent, that 2.5 grams (38.58 grains) might not be worth the cost for precision weighing.
For example, IF the weight tolerance (expect the average to be close to 2.5 grams) is +/- 0.019 grams (almost +/- 0.3 grains) that doesn't sound all that precise to me. But, it was cheap
Using a brand spanking new penny to check a powder charge around 38 grains and you could be off 0.3 grains.
Probably better than that. Maybe withing a tenth of a grain, unless you got a light or heavy one. Then probably still within +/- 0.2 grains. Unless you were really unlucky.
You could weigh a couple hundred pennies and pick one from the middle of the distribution and keep it as your check weight. Make sure they are all nice new shiny pennies though. I use a reduced weight dime, 35 grains thinned to 31 grains (just for the fun of it).
Maybe you could use your +/- 0.1 grain Chargemaster to check the weight of a penny, then use the penny to check the Chargemaster.
Then use the Chargemaster to check the penny, and then the penny to check the Chargemaster, and then - - -
Isn't it sad to think 7 pages of posts are only worth one cent
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Danny,
Why not? A 2 gram check weight (10 carats) works great to check my 30 to 31 grain loads.
Carats?
Yup. My cheapo digital scale that I use most reads to 0.02 grains, 0.002 grams (sold as 0.001 gram resolution), but reads to 0.005 carats which IS 0.001 grams so I guess it's not that big of a lie.
I have a brass grain/gram set but still mostly use gram/carat.
EDIT: Gram check weights might not be best for a grain beam scale.
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Why not? A 2 gram check weight (10 carats) works great to check my 30 to 31 grain loads.
Carats?
Yup. My cheapo digital scale that I use most reads to 0.02 grains, 0.002 grams (sold as 0.001 gram resolution), but reads to 0.005 carats which IS 0.001 grams so I guess it's not that big of a lie.
I have a brass grain/gram set but still mostly use gram/carat.
EDIT: Gram check weights might not be best for a grain beam scale.
Oops
looks like my next post was flagged as spam
This message is awaiting moderator approval, and is invisible to normal visitors.
Not a problem, I'll follow the rules.
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If shopping, look for at least tolerance class M1.
A M1 class 2 gram weight is +/- 1.2 milligrams, 30.864 grains +/- 0.0185 grains
A M1 class 5 gram weight is +/- 1.5 milligrams, 77.16 grains +/- 0.0231 grains
Remember the penny?
2.5 grams +/- 19 milligrams, 38.58 +/- .29 grains
A M1 class 2 gram weight is +/- 1.2 milligrams, 30.864 grains +/- 0.0185 grains
A M1 class 5 gram weight is +/- 1.5 milligrams, 77.16 grains +/- 0.0231 grains
Remember the penny?
2.5 grams +/- 19 milligrams, 38.58 +/- .29 grains
CharlieNC
Gold $$ Contributor
If a check weight is only used to check that the device is getting the correct answer, then as noted ad nausea it doesn't matter much. On the other hand, if the weight is used calibrate a digital scale then it should be as accurate as the user requires. Something to consider, you may be better off using the check weight to confirm accuracy vs calibrating more frequently as the act of calibrating also has error associated with that operation (eg the precision of weighing). At least that is what we found with a number of instruments that we used.
There is a term in metrology for precisely that. Tampering.
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