Which Scale Check Weights?

[Baer45]

I don’t know why, but all my scales, to include rcbs, DILLON and fXi all have weights in grams. The book that comes with fXi scale specifically says to calibrate in Grams and when I called the company they explained why (all over my head) and also said a scale was more accurate reading in grams also but the difference was so slight it was not even close to affecting the load. There is a reason Tubb and most of the long range shooters spend $20,000 for scales..new magnetic technology now allows us to get closer to their consistency for around $1,000 and with speed...the fXi has made the biggest difference in long range shooting (in terms of vertical spread) for me then any other single tool I have bought excluding our new VLD Bullets...I don’t really start noticing a difference until I get out past 600 yds and at a thousand yds plus the difference is a hit or miss...this is a crazy hobby that can drive a sane man crazy

 

[ED3]

I don’t know why, but all my scales, to include rcbs, DILLON and fXi all have weights in grams. The book that comes with fXi scale specifically says to calibrate in Grams and when I called the company they explained why (all over my head) and also said a scale was more accurate reading in grams also but the difference was so slight it was not even close to affecting the load. There is a reason Tubb and most of the long range shooters spend $20,000 for scales..new magnetic technology now allows us to get closer to their consistency for around $1,000 and with speed...the fXi has made the biggest difference in long range shooting (in terms of vertical spread) for me then any other single tool I have bought excluding our new VLD Bullets...I don’t really start noticing a difference until I get out past 600 yds and at a thousand yds plus the difference is a hit or miss...this is a crazy hobby that can drive a sane man crazy

I'm curious: What scale are "...most of the long range shooters..." spending $20k on, and what is the benefit does it provide beyond the A&D ?
It would seem any resolution greater than that a kernel of powder is wasted unless one chooses to dissect powder under a microscope.

 

[Baer45]

Do a search on this,web site for David Tubb and/or 6XC. There are more loaders using the $20,000 Prometheus (sp) then you/I would imagine. There is an article here or at 6.5 guys showing his setup on a Dillon 550. There is also another article showing how someone else set up theirs...I love my,A&D like you...my point was that when someone like David who has won more competitions then anyone I know is willing to go to those lengths to get accurate measurements, then obviously there is a benefit to having the best scales we can afford...

Here is one link but there is another with a video showing it working on top of a Dillon 550...he loads all of his match ammo on it...

http://www.6mmbr.com/prometheus.html

 

[ED3]

Do a search on this,web site for David Tubb and/or 6XC. There are more loaders using the $20,000 Prometheus (sp) then you/I would imagine. There is an article here or at 6.5 guys showing his setup on a Dillon 550. There is also another article showing how someone else set up theirs...I love my,A&D like you...my point was that when someone like David who has won more competitions then anyone I know is willing to go to those lengths to get accurate measurements, then obviously there is a benefit to having the best scales we can afford...

Here is one link but there is another with a video showing it working on top of a Dillon 550...he loads all of his match ammo on it...

http://www.6mmbr.com/prometheus.html

The Prometheus website lists the purchase price at $5100 for outright ownership (as opposed to their less expensive leasing arrangement), which prompted me to question the $20k you cite. The article in the above link says $1175, which I suspect is an outdate lease price.
It also shows the accuracy of the Prometheus to be quite similar to the A&D

I know they have been quite popular, but if I'm not mistaken, the one guy I know that had one, a national team member, switched to the A&D/ Auto trickler system, also using a Dillon 550.

I'm not knocking the Prometheus, mostly just curious about your numbers.

 

[Webster]

i need to buy a GOOD set of scale check weights. Please throw some options at me as to which weights are accurate and reliable.

Also, let me know which weights you would not recommend due to inconsistency of weight.

I made a set of weights at work from a sheet of stainless steel. I cut and sanded them untill they bracketed my typical powder weights. They were weighed on a scale at work that goes out to 5 decimals in grams. Converted to grains. They match the weight I wanted to within the about the 3rd. decimal in grains. Good enough for me. I made 4 standards I only use the one that weighs something like 32.9978 grains I call it 33.0. I zero the beam with this one. We don't need accuracy beyond a couple decimals. For hunting and varmint work 1 decimal is good enough. Like others have said repeatability is the most important thing. Good purchased standards are rhodium plated to prevent oxidation. It's considered a must to use teflon coated twizers when picking up standards for accurate work and no damage to the standard. Depends on how many decimals accuracy you need. We have scales at work that can weigh a finger print.

 

[Baer45]

The Prometheus website lists the purchase price at $5100 for outright ownership (as opposed to their less expensive leasing arrangement), which prompted me to question the $20k you cite. The article in the above link says $1175, which I suspect is an outdate lease price.
It also shows the accuracy of the Prometheus to be quite similar to the A&D

I know they have been quite popular, but if I'm not mistaken, the one guy I know that had one, a national team member, switched to the A&D/ Auto trickler system, also using a Dillon 550.

I'm not knocking the Prometheus, mostly just curious about your numbers.

Yes, it appears I was wrong on the price but I could have sworn I read $20,000 the setup he was using. My apologies. I am going to look back through some articles and see where I got that number. Here is another fellow who uses it:http://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/gunweek053/
It would seem it’s main benefit is speed at 10Secs but like you I like the A & D.../

 

[ED3]

Yes, it appears I was wrong on the price but I could have sworn I read $20,000 the setup he was using. My apologies. I am going to look back through some articles and see where I got that number. Here is another fellow who uses it:http://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/gunweek053/
It would seem it’s main benefit is speed at 10Secs but like you I like the A & D.../

I use the auto-trickler with my A&D. I doubt it takes longer than 10 seconds. It performs fast enough for my past practice of batch charging, (so I don't introduce vibrations from seating on a RockChucker) that I didn't think the auto thrower would benefit me.. This season I will be seating with an arbor press, and will likely change my sequence, and isolate the scale bench from the arbor press....maybe there's an auto thrower in my future....

 

[varget204]

USE Precision scale weight sets,a lot of scales have a 20 gram/308.6 grain scale weight,you use them to Zero your scale.and put Precision weights on and find out your scale is off.Lyman and other Company's make them ,relatively cheap.What ever you are weighing,Example-you want to way 44.3 grains,u put 44.3 grains of the precision weights on your pan,zero it take them off put them back,it should read 44.3 grains.What ever the weight is your trying to measure.They have .5,1,2,5,10.20.50.100 grain precision weights.You can check EXACTLY where your scale is.If your goal is The most accurate Shells you can Get,the Check weights are the way to go.I just got another 1000 40 grain bullets,i sorted by Ogive length,and weighed them.To my surprise i had bullets that weighed from 39.4 grains to 40.2 grains, They shoot to different POI and the lighter ones usually don't group as well.I,ve had multiple bullets in different calibers, that when weighed were off.At one time or another most people WILL wind up getting bullets that do not weigh what they are supposed to weigh.If your trying to drop powder charges to 1-2 kernals of powder,ya can't when your scale is off.If you are using balance type,digital,etc,the scale weights are #1.I have been loading since the 60's,have seen scales stop working,start fluctuating,ETC Shit Happens,If you have Check Weights,At Least you will know what happened Before The Boom. lol

 

[1066]

It would seem any resolution greater than that a kernel of powder is wasted unless one chooses to dissect powder under a microscope.

I agree with this, a single kernel of something like Varget weighs about .02 grains, it can be detected with a good beam scale, no amount of zero's after the decimal point makes any difference unless you are going to cut kernels.. Of course, at the heart of the Prometheus, is just a another good beam scale.

 

[varget204]

exactly, we are not selling gold or compounding pharmaceuticals so whether a checkweight is 45.2 gns or 45.3 or 45.1 is not relevant to what we are going for. What is important is that same check weight still registers 45.25 grains today, tomorrow and a year from now. I find either a .22 LR or some other 40gn bullet works well for me becasue that is close to all my favorite loads

I also calibrate my scale with 30 grams rather than 100. In the Navy we were taught that a torque wrench is most accurate in the middle of it's range and figure the same logic applies to load cells, maybe not but scale seem sensitive enough to me

DUH,if your trying to weigh your 45.25 grains,how do you know your scale is Reading Correctly;With Out Checking the Accuracy of your scale w/ precision scale weights ?? If your shooting at 1000 yards or farther,it makes a Difference,If your trying to hit 55 gallon drum at 100 feet it Doen't.

 

[Bart B.]

Unless your barreled action is hard fixed in place so it doesn't recoil during barrel time, velocity will be affected by its recoil.

How many shots does it take to verify one powder particle difference changes chronographed velocity any amount.

 

[JMayo]

I set up my Sartorius with a certified check weight. (Glove furnished)
When/if I need to check my confidence in it I have some cheaper weights that I've learned the weight of....
However, it's never OFF !

 

[eas1949]

Ha, my $100.00 scale is 10 times more accurate than a FX120 and I dont even need scale calibration weights!!

Eric

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Ill be glad when winter is over. Who cares if your scale says 43.45 or 43.44 on a powder weight as long as it repeats? And if you find out that your 43.45 load is the one you like itll be different next week.
And if i scratch 68.45gr on a bullet that i weigh on my lab scale that doesnt change the weight of that bullet. Then i toss it into the pan on a tuned balance beam itll say the same thing it did 2 years ago. Can anybody on here see the difference in 30.42gr and 30.49gr? You shoot off the shelf bullets in unsorted cases outside of a tunnel with no windflags with a questionable scope on a $400rest, i could go on and on

 

[dsculley]

Ok, there are two schools of thought here:
1) As a precision instrument, a scale should/must be calibrated with precise check weights so that it will weigh an item the same as all other precisely calibrated scales.
2) The preciseness of the calibration weight does not matter as we are not comparing our powder charges with anything else.

#1 is correct if you want to be able to use any scale that you have available at the time to weigh your charges. 48.6 g will yield the same mass of powder no matter which scale you use.

#2 is correct for most of us. Most of us do not use different scales to weigh charges. If I calibrate my scale with the same check weight every time then it really doesn't matter if the calibration weight is not as precise as those used in labs or for resale. I worked my load up using the same scale that was calibrated the same way each time. My charge is consistent from session to session both during load development and later when using the load. What I consider 38.6 may be anywhere between 38.5 & 38.7 but as long as I use the same scale/calibration method/check weight then the empirical weight does not matter.

There is a lot of discussion in these threads about how weighing charges to two decimal places is necessary for long range shooting. It is my premise that MV and charge weight are not a straight line relationship when you are loading in a node. As a test of this theory, I recently loaded two rounds with my charge weight and two rounds with +/- 0.1gr. I tested these a 287 yds, the longest range available locally. These six rounds grouped 0.45 moa with 0.35 moa of vertical. I pulled one of the shots out of the group, but included it in the analysis. (Without that shot, the other five grouped 0.22 moa with 0.13 moa vertical.) Even if that extra 0.01 - 0.05gr of powder causes 0.5 to 1.0" of vertical at 1,000 yds, how many people can shoot well enough to know if that vertical was caused by the incremental powder, the shooter, the wind or the equipment (rest, rear bag, bipod, etc)? I will be the first to admit that I don't believe I can.

So, calibrate YOUR scale the way YOU want. It doesn't matter to me how you do it or how much money you throw at your scale trying to improve your shooting/score. It seems in these threads that whenever someone posts an idea that challenges another person's belief/system that person feels compelled to respond, and the response is not usually in a nice manner. These forums should be a clearinghouse for ideas. If you don't like someone else's ideas/beliefs then travel on. You should not feel compelled to denigrate the other person as a means of supporting your position!

Just my 2¢

 

[JimSC]

DUH,if your trying to weigh your 45.25 grains,how do you know your scale is Reading Correctly;With Out Checking the Accuracy of your scale w/ precision scale weights ?? If your shooting at 1000 yards or farther,it makes a Difference,If your trying to hit 55 gallon drum at 100 feet it Doen't.

three months ago my pulled 40 grain .22LR bullet check weight weighed 39.96 grains the first day I weighed it. Just weighed it and it weighed 39.94 grains. My powder load has about 35 FPS difference between 37.30 and 37 .80 gns so if my weighed charge of 37.50 is off .02 grains one way or the other I will never notice it. My buddy swears by his RCBS 750 Chargemaster and at 1000 yards can bust a clay pigeon 3 out of 4 shots. It's called load development, you look for flat spots in the velocity curve so you don't have to worry if the load was developed in 30 degree weather and now it's the middle of August

 

[Medic505]

This has got to be one of DUMBEST POSTS i have seen,bullets vary in weight,JOIN the NIT CLUB

This has to be one of the FUNNIEST POSTS I've ever seen here. Graduate of the F. Guffy School of Reloading?

 

[DDRH65PRC]

A 100 gram weight that is off by 0.644 grains is Class 7, not Class 1, but that isn't what is really important. What is critical is that you know the exact weight within a known degree of uncertainty.

View attachment 1087574



Calibration weights are still widely used today to verify some very accurate (and expensive) scales and balances. A good set with calibration certificates is expensive.

I use a set that was found and given to me by a friend who drove a garbage truck, but I compared them on a laboratory analytical balance against a set of calibration weights for which actual weight was established by the state Weights and Measures laboratory and known to a degree so fine I could never distinguish myself. My company paid almost $1,000 for this service.

Yeah, overkill by magnitudes for scales that only read to 0.1 gr.,, but I had the capability at the time and I'm just a little bit OCD. Most people on this forum, and this section in particular, share the same trait.

Ideally your scale should be checked at zero and across the range you will be weighing. My highest powder charge is not quite 100 gr. Add the tray and it's still under 150 gr. I check at 0, 100 & 200 gr. and that's fine.

Thanks Howland, this is good info. After using the class 1 calibration weight, my charge weight and velocity matched up closer to Hornady's published data.

I also used the 2 50gram calibration weight from my charge master lite, and they are close, but still very slightly off from the 100gram class 1.

 

[JimSC]

It would seem any resolution greater than that a kernel of powder is wasted unless one chooses to dissect powder under a microscope.

Maybe someone can fill me in on what I am missing here.

We all do a load development using the development method of choice. The OCW method, Cortina's 100 yard load development method, just shooting a ladder at range etc and there are probably more that I don't know about. We do that either with chrono and or vertical dispersion on our test targets . We look flat spots in the velocity curve or in the POI on the targets where POI and velocity can span .3 or .5 gns of powder without significant changes. It just seems to me that when using a load that only has a few FPS difference over several tenths of a grain difference that having a tenth difference from target weight will have much difference for the average shooters POI. I am pretty sure for me at least it would get lost in the noise of my technique.

A world class 1000 yard benchrest shooter might see a difference of .03 gns but a for a 1000 yard F class shooter a 1 MOA or less group centered is a 200 point target. My other point is you can take a scale with a .0001 resolution and use a fine grained ball powder and unless that barrel like that load your velocities will be all over the place. Are any of those points wrong?

good discussion BTW

 

[Cecil S.]

USE Precision scale weight sets,a lot of scales have a 20 gram/308.6 grain scale weight,you use them to Zero your scale.and put Precision weights on and find out your scale is off.Lyman and other Company's make them ,relatively cheap.What ever you are weighing,Example-you want to way 44.3 grains,u put 44.3 grains of the precision weights on your pan,zero it take them off put them back,it should read 44.3 grains.What ever the weight is your trying to measure.They have .5,1,2,5,10.20.50.100 grain precision weights.You can check EXACTLY where your scale is.If your goal is The most accurate Shells you can Get,the Check weights are the way to go.I just got another 1000 40 grain bullets,i sorted by Ogive length,and weighed them.To my surprise i had bullets that weighed from 39.4 grains to 40.2 grains, They shoot to different POI and the lighter ones usually don't group as well.I,ve had multiple bullets in different calibers, that when weighed were off.At one time or another most people WILL wind up getting bullets that do not weigh what they are supposed to weigh.If your trying to drop powder charges to 1-2 kernals of powder,ya can't when your scale is off.If you are using balance type,digital,etc,the scale weights are #1.I have been loading since the 60's,have seen scales stop working,start fluctuating,ETC Shit Happens,If you have Check Weights,At Least you will know what happened Before The Boom. lol

GUFFY , you old rascal!!!