Which gage is more beneficial?

[DanConzo]

I mentioned early in this thread that I was addressing "case headspace"; but as we all know "One man's onion is another man's apple".

 

[DanConzo]

In 1939 Shooter's Bible, page 307, L.E. Wilson called it "cone to head Length". Probably even before this. In recent years (30 or so) in my part of the country and a lot of writings which I'm not going to prove or justify call it "case headspace". I think most people know what it means and IMHO I think it is a good definition.

 

[BoydAllen]

Then we are in agreement as to the suitability of the term. On the gauge question, there is obviously more than one way to accomplish this task. Take your pick.

 

[BlackEagle]

The Wilson gauge will indicate that the round is within SAAMI specs. It will not indicate a precision headspace fit to your (emphasis on "your") chamber.

I would be lost without my Stoney Point (now Hornady) chamber over-all-length gauge. Use it with each and every batch of ammo loaded.

I have to respectfully disagree here. I use the Wilson gauge. When we bump the shoulder back only slightly the resulting brass is always left longer than it would normally be. This means the base sticks out below the gauge farther, which allows us to use a standard caliper of our choice (which everyone should have if they are reloading), without any attachments, to measure the ("headspace",base to datum length, whatever) very accurately. The top and bottom of the gauges are very flat, which gives the jaws of the calipers a very repeatable and precise place to rest even without the granite or machined metal surface, etc. In fact I will go so far as to say I think the Wilson gauges are more precise than the Stoney Point/Hornady tool since only a small portion of the case is held firmly in the latter. More precise = better IMHO.

 

[DanConzo]

You are correct, I was just stating how you can do this with a comparator stand, but what you stated is right on.

 

[bigedp51]

Midway and Larry Potterfield headspace terms.

Wilson catalog "assures correct headspace".

SAAMI terms and definitions

HEADSPACE
The distance from the face of the closed breech of a firearm to the surface in the chamber on which the cartridge case seats.

HEADSPACE GAGE
A device used in a firearm to determine the distance between the breech face and the chamber surface on which the cartridge seats. Also called Breeching Plug.

CASE GAGE
A fixture used to inspect cartridge case dimensions (i.e. length, diameters, thickness, etc.) to insure conformance to established tolerances.

HEAD CLEARANCE
The distance between the head of a fully seated cartridge or shell and the face of the breech bolt when the action is in the closed position. Commonly confused with headspace.

 

[DanConzo]

BlackEagle--You also pointed out the QUALITY of Wilson products. I guess when you have been making tools (some hardly changed) for over 75 years and the same family are owners (as far as I know) you must be doing something right.

 

[BlackEagle]

BlackEagle--You also pointed out the QUALITY of Wilson products. I guess when you have been making tools (some hardly changed) for over 75 years and the same family are owners (as far as I know) you must be doing something right.

They are definately doing it right. I have nothing against Hornady (in fact I like their ammo and components a lot) and I can see you don't either. Another reason I won't be getting the Hornady tool is my Wilson gauges will never wear out or need replacing...

 

[DanConzo]

Someone will probably bring up steel vs aluminum rust issues I wouldn't doubt. But I think the OP got a idea was going on.

 

[bigedp51]

Topic: Which gage is more beneficial?

Beneficial

1. Receiving or entitling one to receive advantage, use, or benefit

2. Producing or promoting a favorable result; advantageous.

3. Conferring benefits : conducive to personal or social well-being

The Hornady gauge is MORE beneficial because it costs less than buying a multitude of Wilson gauges when one Hornady gauge fits all calibers.

The Hornady gauge is MORE beneficial because it can be used with military calibers fired in larger chambers that get stuck in a Wilson gauge.

Beneficial
1. Receiving or entitling one to receive advantage, use, or benefit

I have both and prefer the Hornady, by a wide margin.

It has also been given the "Good House Keeping seal of approval" by Boyd Allen.

 

[DanConzo]

Well thanks Ed. It's nice to know that you, Larry Potterfield and others are here to help.

 

[BlackEagle]

DanConzo

Forgive me I do not shoot in competition and I'm looking at this posting through a different set of eyes. Also this is the general reloading forum and below it is the Competition reloading forum and in my thinking there should be some sort of dividing line between the two.

The Wilson gauge doesn't come with a granite block and a dial indicator and many of us just fumble with a set of vernier calipers to get our readings. Therefore the Wilson gauge is not more accurate because it doesn't come with anything else and some people are using nothing more than their eyeball and the Wilson gauge.

If you check the OP postings it appears that he just built a new rifle from a Stevens 200 action and is thinking about getting into competition. I'm guessing but I bet the OP doesn't have a granite block and a dial indicator.

KISS = Keep It Simple Stupid (Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge)

How can we argue with this??? He speaks for Larry Potterfield (or at least the guy who works for Larry Potterfield and posted something on the internet). ed says his recommendations are good only for "general reloading" and not "competition". With qualifications like this he clearly knows how to "keep it simple stupid". That being said, the Wilson gauge is also better for basic reloading. It does more than just measure case headspace quickly and easily...

 

[bigedp51]

Well thanks Ed. It's nice to know that you, Larry Potterfield and others are here to help.

Your welcome.

And in all fairness to the Wilson Case Gauge supporters there are at least three benefits to owning a Wilson case gauge.

After you buy the Hornady case gauge......................

1. You can use the Wilson gauge as a paper weight.
2. You can use the Wilson gauge as a pen holder.
3. You can use the Wilson gauge as a humidity indicator and watch it turn brown as it rusts.

Having used both my vote goes to the Hornady gauge.

And cases fired in larger military type chamber do NOT fit in a Wilson gauge like the .223 Remington case fired in a AR15 rifle below. In this photo the case was dropped in the Wilson gauge and is now stuck and had to be pushed out of the gauge.

Beneficial
1. Receiving or entitling one to receive advantage, use, or benefit

How can we argue with this???

You can't.

 

[BlackEagle]

ed, do you even know what a vernier caliper is?

 

[bigedp51]

ed, do you even know what a vernier caliper is?

No, but that thingamabob in my photo above belongs to me. :

And a Vernier caliper, a Dial caliper and Digital caliper belong to the same species but are genetically different.

And I have a question for you.

What do you use to measure over sized egos?

 

[BlackEagle]

I'm really not very familiar with egos, nor am I on an ego forum to discuss such things.

 

[bigedp51]

I'm really not very familiar with egos, nor am I on an ego forum to discuss such things.

ed, do you even know what a vernier caliper is?

Are you visually impaired and use braille gauges?

 

[BlackEagle]

Are you visually impaired and use braille gauges?

No, but if I was the Wilson gauge would be better for that too. And I reckon I could still load better ammo than you.

 

[bozo699]

Holy cow, are you guy's gonna be constructive or destructive, I think both of your methods will work for shoulder bump measurements, I prefer the Larry Willis tool but when the crap hits the fan I have a vernier analog caliper that reads to .0005 and the hornaday or Wilson's or any number of other ways including removing my firing pin and go by feel so lets knock off the bashing please before the forum boss locks this informative and pretty darn funny thread, I think you are both pretty smart and knowledgeable hand loaders
Wayne.

 

[K22]

The GOOD NEWS - this thread is bringing to attention the need to properly set up a full length sizing die whether you use a Wilson, Hornady, RCBS, Sinclair, etc. tool. You guys already know that but hopefully reloaders who are not aware of this will take notice.

You can't believe, well maybe you can, the number of shooters / reloaders I meet at the range that have no concept of what their doing when they full length resize. They just screw the die into the press per the instructions with the die and squeeze away. For many years I was one of these guys until I got my first custom barrel and had to learn how to do it right.

Anyway, debates are fun, but all these tools, when used properly, have value. Some are more costly, some are more precise, and some are easier to use. Wilson does deserves a lot of credit for early on promoting the idea of evaluating proper shoulder set back.