Which bullet would you choose?

[Jeff Porter]

With a 20” barrel you are getting 3000fps?

And the 178 ELD has a much higher BC than the 175 SMK. The 178 bc is close to the 185.

No, 28" The point was comparison of BC and drift can be lost in the hold or wind reading ability. For most shooters, particularly guys just getting started, work on shot taking process and hold followed by wind reading will gain a lot more points than time spent at the reloading bench in search of a load for the highest possible BC and velocity node to maximize your X count on a paper target. If you cannot make a center hit in calm conditions, a better "wind bucking bullet isn't going to help.

and to the OP Tangent, I am not saying this applies to you specifically, just a general observation from a few decades of working to master the art of the rifle.

 

[Tangent]

No, 28" The point was comparison of BC and drift can be lost in the hold or wind reading ability. For most shooters, particularly guys just getting started, work on shot taking process and hold followed by wind reading will gain a lot more points than time spent at the reloading bench in search of a load for the highest possible BC and velocity node to maximize your X count on a paper target. If you cannot make a center hit in calm conditions, a better "wind bucking bullet isn't going to help.

and to the OP Tangent, I am not saying this applies to you specifically, just a general observation from a few decades of working to master the art of the rifle.

Totally agree. Fortunately I started with .22 prone rifle 40 years ago, then .22 pistol. Eventually I got into revolvers and 1500 shooting, after handguns were banned I'm back on rifles. Lots of offhand competitions and more recently "proper" rifles, prone. When conditions are good I can shoot pretty good groups, I'm know there are small things to still improve on. I'm trying to eliminate the things I can control as much as I can. I'm enjoying the challenge of rifles at, for me, longer range. Wind seems to be an order of magnitude bigger factor in group size than anything else. I appreciate everyone's input.

 

[Rob01]

No, 28" The point was comparison of BC and drift can be lost in the hold or wind reading ability. For most shooters, particularly guys just getting started, work on shot taking process and hold followed by wind reading will gain a lot more points than time spent at the reloading bench in search of a load for the highest possible BC and velocity node to maximize your X count on a paper target. If you cannot make a center hit in calm conditions, a better "wind bucking bullet isn't going to help.

and to the OP Tangent, I am not saying this applies to you specifically, just a general observation from a few decades of working to master the art of the rifle.

Well 28" is a good difference from 20" and velocities will not be that high. You have to compare apples to apples. And yes of course being able to make the shot is going to be important but if your shot can be better in the wind then that's all the better for the guy taking the shot. Wind is the biggest obstacle in long range shooting. Been doing this a few decades myself.

 

[wboggs]

2400 would be very slow from a 20”. My 20” shoots the 178s at 2700fps pushed by Varget.

That sounds like a pretty stiff load to get 2700 out of a 178 20"barrel

 

[JFrank]

I did have a load of 155.5gr Bergers with 44.0gr of N140, very accurate but like everything else over here (sunny England) components are very hard to find and expensive. N140 is £104/kg if you can find it.

Yikes That’s expensive !
I didn’t notice you are overseas. N140 I’d definitely accurate but not a speed demon, maybe the double base version will be equally accurate with the extra speed.

 

[Rob01]

That sounds like a pretty stiff load to get 2700 out of a 178 20"barrel

It’s not. It’s under book max of Varget.

 

[Sandstorm]

Shoot the 155,s and push them harder.. they will do fine. Your no where near pressure with you low speeds… they will take more just go slow and test your results

 

[wboggs]

It’s not. It’s under book max of Varget.

What chamber pressure do you calculate to launch a 178gr bullet at 2800 using varget in a 20" barrel?

 

[Rob01]

What chamber pressure do you calculate to launch a 178gr bullet at 2800 using varget in a 20" barrel?

Not 2800. 2700.

 

[wboggs]

I just reviewed data in the Nosler and Hornady manuals.
Nosler 24" barrel 2599fps with max 43.5 varget
Hornady 22" barrel 2450fps with 42.4 varget.
Both loaded to 2.8oal
The velocity seems to be limited to the .308 case capacity using varget and the 180 class bullets.
So you may be able to compress a lot more varget and get 2700 out of the 20" if it is a rare very fast barrel but it is not going to be the norm.

 

[Rob01]

I just reviewed data in the Nosler and Hornady manuals.
Nosler 24" barrel 2599fps with max 43.5 varget
Hornady 22" barrel 2450fps with 42.4 varget.
Both loaded to 2.8oal
The velocity seems to be limited to the .308 case capacity using varget and the 180 class bullets.
So you may be able to compress a lot more varget and get 2700 out of the 20" if it is a rare very fast barrel but it is not going to be the norm.

My load is 44grns of Varget and 45grns is listed as max with 175/180grn bullets. I'm not compressing anything and this has not been this one 20" barrel. I am on my 9th barrel in just this one rifle. Longest barrel on this rifle was 24" and norm was 20-22". Been using between 44-45grns of Varget for over 20 years and shooting them in matches. I load my 178s at .020" off the lands and not at 2.800".

Take a look at the Hodgdon reloading site. They list 45grns as max.

Reloading Data Center – Hodgdon Reloading Data Center

hodgdonreloading.com

 

[wboggs]

My load is 44grns of Varget and 45grns is listed as max with 175/180grn bullets. I'm not compressing anything and this has not been this one 20" barrel. I am on my 9th barrel in just this one rifle. Longest barrel on this rifle was 24" and norm was 20-22". Been using between 44-45grns of Varget for over 20 years and shooting them in matches. I load my 178s at .020" off the lands and not at 2.800".

Take a look at the Hodgdon reloading site. They list 45grns as max.

Reloading Data Center – Hodgdon Reloading Data Center

hodgdonreloading.com

So what is your max oal of your load?

 

[Rob01]

Not near my data now but they easily fit in AICS mags so if memory serves they are around 2.830”.

 

[wboggs]

I do not dispute your results. You are the one shooting it. Case closed as far as I' m concerned.

 

[Tangent]

Yikes That’s expensive !
I didn’t notice you are overseas. N140 I’d definitely accurate but not a speed demon, maybe the double base version will be equally accurate with the extra speed.

Yes, everything has gone up between 2-3x if you can find any. It's mostly buy what you can find if you can afford it! I'll work up the load a bit more, I am loading at mag length 2.90" so I've got some room to play with.

 

[Capt. Oblivious]

What chamber pressure do you calculate to launch a 178gr bullet at 2800 using varget in a 20" barrel?

With the right chamber and brass its actually not that bad, obviously this isn't 100% accurate but its a good indication that its not n pipe bomb

Something to remember though, when looking at load data the max speed/FPS is what you should keep an eye on not the max load.

 

[wboggs]

Very informative. Is the max pressure to produce 2700 with this bullet 66305psi? What length barrel is used in this calculation?
Thanks for the answer to my question to Rob01.

 

[cooler zero]

That sounds fast. I'm at near enough sea level. Looking at the data for N140 in a 24" barrel at max load is 2566fps - Vihtavouri's data. No chance of finding Varget in these parts any more.

N550 would be a better choice for the heavier bullets

 

[Tangent]

N550 would be a better choice for the heavier bullets

May be worth trying with the 178gr with it... I don't think there will be much in it at 500m between the faster 155 or a slower 178 in terms of wind drift. A rebarrel to something like 6 Creedmoor will make a big difference. I had thought about 6BR but I don't think they'd feed well from a magazine on this rifle. Yes you can single feed which I do mostly but I don't like the idea of a mag fed rifle not being able to feed from the magazine.

 

[Bill K]

Remember a slow accurate bullet is better than a fast inaccurate one.

I wondered about that but BC is linked to velocity and 2400fps sounded pretty slow? When I ran the figures I found a 0.2" advantage to the 178gr with a 10mph crosswind. Is there a real world difference that the ballistic software doesn't show?