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Where is the place for flat base bullets?

Being only one of the three you listed really ever made fb it would be an interesting answer

So George, your saying otherwise ? - I know you make dies for bullet making and I respect that. - But let's have a look at what the shooters who are in the top 10 or top 20 are using in the sport. (100/200/300)
No doubt that the Boat-Tails dominate the longer ranges.
Are you making bullets ? - Do you shoot competitively ?
And I'm not trying to be disrespectful.

- Ron -
 
So George, your saying otherwise ? - I know you make dies for bullet making and I respect that. - But let's have a look at what the shooters who are in the top 10 or top 20 are using in the sport. (100/200/300)
No doubt that the Boat-Tails dominate the longer ranges.
Are you making bullets ? - Do you shoot competitively ?
And I'm not trying to be disrespectful.

- Ron -
Since george makes the dies everybody uses hes more in tune with what everybody is doing than the bulletmakers themselves in reality.
 
Since george makes the dies everybody uses hes more in tune with what everybody is doing than the bulletmakers themselves in reality.


Respectfully, his dies aren't the only dies in service. There are a large number of awesome bullets being made with Niemi dies as well and will be for years to come.
 
Respectfully, his dies aren't the only dies in service. There are a large number of awesome bullets being made with Niemi dies as well and will be for years to come.
Youre forgetting roarsharch and detsch too. Bullet dies dont last long if the maker actually sells a bunch of bullets so get em while you can if you like em
 
nobody in the sport today knows more about whats going on with bullets than george. He even knows what dies a particular bulletmaker was using 10yrs ago
 
Youre forgetting roarsharch and detsch too. Bullet dies dont last long if the maker actually sells a bunch of bullets so get em while you can if you like em


I didn't forget anything. It was more a matter of refuting your earlier post where you said "George makes dies everyone uses". That casts too broad of a net. Same as the earlier statement you made in regards to no one using FB bullets in BR anymore. Too broad of a statement. IMO, there are no absolutes.

Personally, I'd like to hear the opinions of George or any die maker or bullet maker in regards to the above discussion comparing FB vs BT bullets. I'm just here to learn.
 
I didn't forget anything. It was more a matter of refuting your earlier post where you said "George makes dies everyone uses". That casts too broad of a net. Same as the earlier statement you made in regards to no one using FB bullets in BR anymore. Too broad of a statement. IMO, there are no absolutes.

Personally, I'd like to hear the opinions of George or any die maker or bullet maker in regards to the above discussion comparing FB vs BT bullets. I'm just here to learn.

youre right i did cast too broad of a net. I sometimes forget people do still use stuff like flat base bullets, non-ppc cartridges, etc. barts ultra bullets are some of the best bullets ever made going by how many he has sold and how many records / matches were won with them. Still my favorite bullet of all time.
 
FB vs BT is an interesting and vexing topic: here's a link to a recent thread with some info regarding FB performance: http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/core-bonding.3990620/

I could look up DATA and go, "on-and-on", regarding the extreme precision delivered by FB bullets at LONG (ok, used to be long) range - 1,000 yard BR. I'm too tired to look it up, and it's WAY too much to type. . . so I'll drop some names: Dave Tooley, Charles Ellertson, Joel Pendergraft; Charles Bailey - those are some of the true believers, who "made it happen".:) RG
 
So George, your saying otherwise ? - I know you make dies for bullet making and I respect that. - But let's have a look at what the shooters who are in the top 10 or top 20 are using in the sport. (100/200/300)
No doubt that the Boat-Tails dominate the longer ranges.
Are you making bullets ? - Do you shoot competitively ?
.

- Ron -
Ron, I no longer make bullets but have I yes. If you want to go by jackets purchased I had a standing order 125k every three months. Have I shot competitively I started in 83 and stopped 3 yrs. ago. I looked up this yrs. Nationals in Phoenix there where no f.b. to be seen in any of the top 10. So I sorted it out of the 8 yardages 4 were won with my dies, of the 4 grands 2 with my dies, ul. 7 of top 10 with my dies, 2 gun 5 of 10 my dies , 3 gun 5 of 10 my dies and 4 gun 5 of 10 again... I didn't see sporter 100. there is a reason bt's are ruling and its not luck..
 
Ron, I no longer make bullets but have I yes. If you want to go by jackets purchased I had a standing order 125k every three months. Have I shot competitively I started in 83 and stopped 3 yrs. ago. I looked up this yrs. Nationals in Phoenix there where no f.b. to be seen in any of the top 10. So I sorted it out of the 8 yardages 4 were won with my dies, of the 4 grands 2 with my dies, ul. 7 of top 10 with my dies, 2 gun 5 of 10 my dies , 3 gun 5 of 10 my dies and 4 gun 5 of 10 again... I didn't see sporter 100. there is a reason bt's are ruling and its not luck..

Well taken George, - I'm happy to hear that the Boat-Tail bullet has advanced to the quoted level. - Being kind of "old-school", I know that this wasn't always the case.
- I won't get into the everyday hunting rifle as this is an accuracy forum, but I will again say that I'm happy to hear that and will surely take what you've stated into consideration when I purchase bullets for my new plans to shoot VFS at 100/200/300 yds.

Regards, - Ron -
 
When it comes to accuracy, it's not so much flat base vs boattail as it is compact vs long and skinny. Short, stubby bullets don't require as much spin and are more tolerant of defects and less than perfect launch dynamics. This makes for good accuracy. It also makes for lousy ballistics, which is why the long skinny boattail bullets dominate long range - they pay the price in accuracy for better wind resistance.

The why's of this are complicated, but I stole some wisdom from Bob McCoy and took a stab at writing it up here: https://bisonballistics.com/articles/jump-sensitivity-factor-a-new-old-way-to-evaluate-bullets

It turns out you can calculate a number akin to a BC, but for accuracy potential. I call it Jump Sensitivity Factor (JSF), since I can't find a well used name anywhere else, but the lower the better. A typical long range bullet might be in the .150-.200 range. A short range bullet should be around 0.060. The best bullet I've run the numbers on so far is a 112gr BIB .308 bullet, which came in at .046! What's good for JSF is bad for BC. That's why there's always a trade off when designing bullets.

I have tested this math by varying the amount of lead in the core of a bullet, and calculating the JSF for the different weights. The math predicts groups will shrink as cores get lighter (to a point - but you run into structural problems before a bullet gets "too light"). So far, my test results have agreed with the math very well for my bullets.

When you crunch these numbers, it turns out that a short boattail isn't all that different than a flat base if you're talking about light bullets, assuming all else equal. It's a relatively minor effect.

Granted, this is just the effect of the boattail on the bullet dynamics. There is obviously more to accuracy that isn't so easily understood (by me at least). But this is a big part of it.
 
Well taken George, - I'm happy to hear that the Boat-Tail bullet has advanced to the quoted level. - Being kind of "old-school", I know that this wasn't always the case.
- I won't get into the everyday hunting rifle as this is an accuracy forum, but I will again say that I'm happy to hear that and will surely take what you've stated into consideration when I purchase bullets for my new plans to shoot VFS at 100/200/300 yds.

Regards, - Ron -
I get this conversation quite often the best or easiest to explain is yes fb work they are easier to tune and KEEP in tune, but a tuned bt will out shoot it IF kept in tune, thats the hard part....
 
Youre forgetting roarsharch and detsch too. Bullet dies dont last long if the maker actually sells a bunch of bullets so get em while you can if you like em
Dusty you forgot Ross Sherman and Bob Simonson...Dies really don't last when people feel they can make them better with a little lapping compound....It happens more than you think , next call I get is can you fix this..
 
George, back in #29 your last statement is intriguing.
Would you be willing to elaborate on the superiority of present day BT’s just a bit ?
As an FYI, Ross was just down the road a piece, not too many realize what a marvel the guy really was.
 
When it comes to accuracy, it's not so much flat base vs boattail as it is compact vs long and skinny. Short, stubby bullets don't require as much spin and are more tolerant of defects and less than perfect launch dynamics. This makes for good accuracy. It also makes for lousy ballistics, which is why the long skinny boattail bullets dominate long range - they pay the price in accuracy for better wind resistance.

The why's of this are complicated, but I stole some wisdom from Bob McCoy and took a stab at writing it up here: https://bisonballistics.com/articles/jump-sensitivity-factor-a-new-old-way-to-evaluate-bullets

It turns out you can calculate a number akin to a BC, but for accuracy potential. I call it Jump Sensitivity Factor (JSF), since I can't find a well used name anywhere else, but the lower the better. A typical long range bullet might be in the .150-.200 range. A short range bullet should be around 0.060. The best bullet I've run the numbers on so far is a 112gr BIB .308 bullet, which came in at .046! What's good for JSF is bad for BC. That's why there's always a trade off when designing bullets.

I have tested this math by varying the amount of lead in the core of a bullet, and calculating the JSF for the different weights. The math predicts groups will shrink as cores get lighter (to a point - but you run into structural problems before a bullet gets "too light"). So far, my test results have agreed with the math very well for my bullets.

When you crunch these numbers, it turns out that a short boattail isn't all that different than a flat base if you're talking about light bullets, assuming all else equal. It's a relatively minor effect.

Granted, this is just the effect of the boattail on the bullet dynamics. There is obviously more to accuracy that isn't so easily understood (by me at least). But this is a big part of it.

Damon - excellent take and concise write up on McCoy's work, and aerodynamic jump!:) I will only add that precision does not degrade with range; with lower & lower BC, it merely becomes increasingly difficult to keep centered, demanding ever better doping ability!:eek::DRG
 
I did not have any success with the Sierra 85gr flat base bullets working up loads with 3 different powders. However, I guy in our club gave me some 95gr Hornady SST's to try and those dang bullets flat out shoot! I only tried one powder, 8208XBR and it did well but there is potential with them, they even have a crimp groove in them. I'm running them at .020 off and the bullet is still down to the shoulder junction, way deep in there. At 200 yards they are grouping in the 4's to 7's
 

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