When to call it quits

[Chiquita]

At what point do you give up on a load? After how many tries of different charge weights, different seating depth, cold/hot weather......

 

[NZ_Fclass]

Rarely...I'm a slow learner! Mind you I gave up with IMR4166 in the 308 the first time that I chrono'd it. Still use the stuff in the BR - Shoots fine and I have 4 lbs...

 

[Homerange]

At what point do you give up on a load? After how many tries of different charge weights, different seating depth, cold/hot weather......

If the load is appropriate for the firearm, never.
But to qualify that, the first thing changed is the pill as some just won't shoot in some barrels.

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

At what point do you give up on a load? After how many tries of different charge weights, different seating depth, cold/hot weather......

I think if its being this picky, even if you do ever get it to shoot, will it be easy to keep it in tune?

 

[1shot]

Sometimes it's just the bbl. When I went down the rabbit hole with my 284 Shehane, I bought a 1-9 twist bbl. because others said that is should use. The bbl. shot ok with 180 class bullets, but never great. I live in Ohio where the elevation I shoot at is 1,100-1,200 ft. ASL. I took the rifle to a 1K match in Colorado where the range is 5,600 ASL, and the rifle shot lights out!! Got back home and screwed on an 8.25 twist and using the same loads, it shot small right from the start. The moral to the story is good loads can not shoot up to its potential if all the other factors don't play well together.
I hope this helps,

Lloyd

 

[ebb]

I think Homerange hit it on the head. Even if you give up on the "Load" what part of the load do you change? The bullet? I think you have to look at a lot of stuff first and decide if the gun will shoot any load. But if it will shoot decent with someone else's load or factory ammo. If you know the gun will at least shoot something I think the bullet and the powder need to be researched to see if one or the other is the place to start.

 

[JEFFPPC]

I am not quite sure what your calling a load. If I have settled on a load I feel it's the best combination this barrel will give me. That is the load I use for the life of the barrel. If I feel the need as the barrel wears I adjust with the tuner. I may add a .1 or .2 if shooting a match in cold weather at our winter matches which may be single digets or minus. If I am not competitive at that point it is the barrel or in 2 cases I have felt it was the bullet I was trying to force feed chasing bc. If I am chasing a load in season that would mean I had never found a tune to start with. Back to, you need to find a development process that works for YOU. I don't think lots of shooters ever do that. And how many shooters developed loads using flags. If you did not you probably don't have the best tune. The load development should be nailed down before going to a match. I go to be competitive with a chance to win, not to see if this seating depth/powder charge might work. It takes an investment in both money and time.

 

[Beiruty]

Sometimes it's just the bbl. When I went down the rabbit hole with my 284 Shehane, I bought a 1-9 twist bbl. because others said that is should use. The bbl. shot ok with 180 class bullets, but never great. I live in Ohio where the elevation I shoot at is 1,100-1,200 ft. ASL. I took the rifle to a 1K match in Colorado where the range is 5,600 ASL, and the rifle shot lights out!! Got back home and screwed on an 8.25 twist and using the same loads, it shot small right from the start. The moral to the story is good loads can not shoot up to its potential if all the other factors don't play well together.
I hope this helps,

Lloyd

That is the truth. This is why even a Tikka T3 can potentially shoot 1/2 MOA or better.

 

[jelenko]

When we say a barrel doesn't like a particular bullet - what group size are we talking about that it will shoot but is still unacceptable?
I'm not trying to start a discussion about what is acceptable/not acceptable.
I'm just wondering if this would impact my own load development. I look for a load that the vast majority of 5 shot groups are .5 to .75 MOA. So, I'm thinking what would be close but unacceptable for BR would be fine for what I need.

Thanks

 

[bsekf]

I have found that if a barrel won't shoot MOA, with most any load, it never will. Now if you are talking about getting from 2's to 1's that's another story.

 

[22BRGUY]

There are numerous things that can make a difference besides the load also.
I found in one rifle that if I set the rifle further ahead in the front rest making the rifle
a bit more front heavy, it made a very nice difference in the groups.
Now I always determine the fulcrum point of the rifle from the beginning.
Good Luck!

 

[K22]

First, there are sometimes exceptions but unless your rifle is bedded properly don't expect spectacular groups. Assuming you have a quality rifle system and scope, with today's hammer forged barrels you should be able to achieve 1 moa without exhaustive load development.

As I have said in prior posts, in my experience the bullet selected is the most significant element in achieving an adequate level of accuracy. Some rifles will just not shoot a particular bullet well no matter how many powders, powder charges, brand primers, seating depths, etc. tried. Pay attention to the rifle twist when selecting a bullet. Generally speaking, at least under 300 yards which is the limit of my experience, flat base bullets shoot tighter. However, I have had boat tail bullets shoot 1/4 moa groups.

Powder selection should not be a problem since most cartridges have several powders with well-established histories that work. A good place to start is "most accurate" powder tested listed in reloading manuals or powders close to that one in burning rate.

To answer your question, for me, generally a series of 3 shot groups with varying powder charges will reveal a potential load. However, if some reason I don't feel like I'm in the zone that day, i.e., I'm not shooting well, then I'll rerun the 3 shot series. I can usually tell after the 3 shot series if a particular bullet is going to work for that rifle.

I confirm the load selected from the 3 shot series with three, 5 shot groups. If none of this produces the group that I need then I will try another bullet. I save the unused bullets for another rifle testing, or I may try that bullet with another powder but rarely has the latter ever worked for me.

Let me also clarify that my standard is generally 1/2 to 5/8 moa for varmint / predator rifles, and 1 to 1 1/4 moa for big game rifles. These are modest standards by benchrest standards. I'd be willing to bet that most load development difficulties can be traced back to limitations of the rifle or the shooter.

 

[HandgunHTR]

I like to tinker and I am not a competition shooter, so I "give up" on loads quite frequently and very quickly. I will choose a bullet, brass, primer, and powder combo and load up a ladder. If I can't find a good load with it within 20-40 rounds, I change up either the bullet or the powder and start over.
In my 20+ years of reloading, I only have two loads that I use that are "original" to the firearm that I worked them up for. A 140 grain Nosler AB/BT load for the 7-08 using H4350, Rem brass and CCI primers, and a 6.8SPC load using 110 grain ABs, SSA brass, AA2200 powder, and CCI primers.
Everything else has been fooled with and changed up. I use an Excel workbook as my load database and there are some cartridges that I have over 100 lines of various loads that I have tried.

 

[Chiquita]

First, there are sometimes exceptions but unless your rifle is bedded properly don't expect spectacular groups. Assuming you have a quality rifle system and scope, with today's hammer forged barrels you should be able to achieve 1 moa without exhaustive load development.

As I have said in prior posts, in my experience the bullet selected is the most significant element in achieving an adequate level of accuracy. Some rifles will just not shoot a particular bullet well no matter how many powders, powder c...

I confirm the load selected from the 3 shot series with three, 5 shot groups. If none of this produces the group that I need then I will try another bullet. I save the unused bullets for another rifle testing, or I may try that bullet with another powder but rarely has the latter ever worked for me.

If the velocity is good but no groups you give up?

 

[BoydAllen]

A friend bought an expensive 6.5 Grendel. He immediately set about working up a load, choosing the bullet with the best BC in the appropriate weight range, and the powder that would give him the greatest velocity. He tried and tried, ignoring what the rifle was trying to "tell" him. When he was at the end of his rope, I suggested that he check out a web site that was focused on that caliber. After lurking there for some time, based on what he had read, he tried a different powder and bullet, and the rifle came alive, and shot very small. If your rifle is mechanically correct and it is not shooting a given combination, you need to look elsewhere, and not continue to waste your time, barrel steel and components.

 

[K22]

If the velocity is good but no groups you give up?

Accuracy is paramount for me. I have to be within a certain point of impact consistently to be successful in my game.

 

[JSH]

I watch the chrono, not near like many. I have seen some good numbers and chase depth, and primers with no success of excellent groups. On the other hand have shot some excellent groups only to to see poor to terrible numbers.
Right or wrong I let the target tell me. Though I will admit to chasing my tail with the numbers, lol.

 

[209jones]

Depends on how much you want that gun in particular, and what effort you are willng to put into it, and how much patience you are willing to expend on it. For me, maybe 3 bullets and 3 powders, sometimes less, sometimes more. I have a double rifle that I was trying different loads with, as I didn't know the regulating load for it, finally figured it out after 5-6 of non factory bullets and 3-4 powders. Then I tried a factory load one bullet weight heavier. Now I finally know what I have to duplicate, have the right bullets, and will play with that. Had other guns, couple loads tested, couple of bullets, didn't show anything decent, down the road they went.

 

[Homerange]

Let me also clarify that my standard is generally 1/2 to 5/8 moa for varmint / predator rifles, and 1 to 1 1/4 moa for big game rifles. These are modest standards by benchrest standards.

You ain't kidding !
But TBH there's absolutely no reason why the vast majority of rifles can obtain those results with just the better quality factory loads let alone carefully crafted handloads.

Generally speaking, at least under 300 yards which is the limit of my experience, flat base bullets shoot tighter. However, I have had boat tail bullets shoot 1/4 moa groups.

That's the rub, you just never know which way that will fall.

An old Sako 222 L56 Mk5 as old as I wouldn't shoot 50gr BT's for love nor money but 50gr SX Hornady 2240 under 1/4" all day long ! Yet as you say the same 50gr BT's out of my Model 7 223 were like lasers.

This particular 222 load development for long range varmint work (well as far as long is for 222) awakened me to the mismatch some ordinary loads can be for some barrels, so much I've never forgot it so now if things don't come together for at least hunting accuracy right from the getgo it's time to try something else rather than waste time, primers, powder and projectiles.

 

[K22]

You ain't kidding !
But TBH there's absolutely no reason why the vast majority of rifles can obtain those results with just the better quality factory loads let alone carefully crafted handloads.


That's the rub, you just never know which way that will fall.

An old Sako 222 L56 Mk5 as old as I wouldn't shoot 50gr BT's for love nor money but 50gr SX Hornady 2240 under 1/4" all day long ! Yet as you say the same 50gr BT's out of my Model 7 223 were like lasers.

This particular 222 load development for long range varmint work (well as far as long is for 222) awakened me to the mismatch some ordinary loads can be for some barrels, so much I've never forgot it so now if things don't come together for at least hunting accuracy right from the getgo it's time to try something else rather than waste time, primers, powder and projectiles.

I've seen amazing groups shot at the range with factory files and factory ammo. The problem with factory ammo is threefold as I see it these days: 1. consistent availability, 2. consistency in manufacturing, 3. the inability to fine tune a load for a specific rifle.

In the late 60's and 70's I used a lot of Remington 80 grain factory ammo in my 243 for varmint and predator hunting. The ammo was always available on dealer's shelves. It shot about 1 moa or slightly less out of my Win Model 70 with a 3 x 9 Redfield scope. I was quite successful hunting with this combo. However, I began shooting sub 1 moa on a consistent basis once I started reloading, not a first, but eventually after being schooled by a benchrest shooter who was knowledgeable in reloading.

In those days long range varmint hunting for most of us mortals were about 200 yards or so. This was before range finders, ballistic reticles, and other range measuring devices. A lot of older guys varmint hunted with 22 Hornets, 218 Bees and the king of them all, the 222 Rem in that time. The long-range specialists I knew which were very few, used the 220 Swift.

I agree that there are no absolutes when it comes to which combo will work with which specific rifles even though I had combos that worked in multiple rifles. The only way to know is to perform disciplined testing. In addition, periodic verification of a load in a good idea with changes in powder and bullet lots.