What's the next greatest rifle chambering?

[Laurie]

I shot the CG only once at 600yd with S&B cheap ammo and was amazed at its accuracy!!! My question for you is this: WHAT VELOCITY IS BEST FOR MATCHING RANGE SETTINGS FOR THE REAR SIGHT ADJUSTMENT???? BC??? WEIGHT???

Now that I can't tell you. I had a service-match M1896 for many years. 1907 dated CG receiver which Joe Poyer listed as one of that year's spare components. Turned down bolt handle with a ball size that didn't match any of the sniper rifle bolts, and what looked like a slightly heavier profile than normal barrel. Receiver had been tapped and drilled for a Soderin diopter type. Luckily I quickly acquired one of these for what would nowadays be a steal - £50 sterling.

My assumption, which Joe Poyer agreed with, was that it was a high-spec bitzer put together by a military armourer for service rifle match shooting - what we in the UK called Service Rifle (b) in Enfield Number 4 Rifle days which allowed certain modifications such as diopter sights with SR (a) limited to as-issued standard infantry rifles.

I tried various load combinations and ended up with the ancient 140gn Sierra MK over 44.0gn Viht N160 loaded to the maximum COAL that still allowed reliable magazine operation. MV unknown as none of us had access to chronographs back then. That rifle and load won me a lot of Historic Arms sniper/match rifle medals at 200-500 yards, and it also shot very well indeed at 600 which was the furthest distance range I had access to in those days. I suspect the MV and the bullet's BC wasn't too far off the Swedish service 94/m41 139gn 'Torped' load, and the same likely applies to similar loadings of the Lapua 139gn Scenar and 140 Berger BT, but not the higher BC Berger 140gn LR BT, Hybrids, or the Sierra 142. The Swedes AFAIK simply use selected batches of the old m/41 139gn BT service round and don't have a special match 6.5X55mm.

As far as sight settings go, I set the marked distance on the Soderin dial and sighted myself in with a 6 o'clock hold on the target 'black' at 200, 300, 500 and 600 yards successively keeping a note of typical elevation settings at each distance which I then looked up before range days or matches for years subsequently.

 

[Wild Bill IV]

Now that I can't tell you. I had a service-match M1896 for many years. 1907 dated CG receiver which Joe Poyer listed as one of that year's spare components. Turned down bolt handle with a ball size that didn't match any of the sniper rifle bolts, and what looked like a slightly heavier profile than normal barrel. Receiver had been tapped and drilled for a Soderin diopter type. Luckily I quickly acquired one of these for what would nowadays be a steal - £50 sterling.

My assumption, which Joe Poyer agreed with, was that it was a high-spec bitzer put together by a military armourer for service rifle match shooting - what we in the UK called Service Rifle (b) in Enfield Number 4 Rifle days which allowed certain modifications such as diopter sights with SR (a) limited to as-issued standard infantry rifles.

I tried various load combinations and ended up with the ancient 140gn Sierra MK over 44.0gn Viht N160 loaded to the maximum COAL that still allowed reliable magazine operation. MV unknown as none of us had access to chronographs back then. That rifle and load won me a lot of Historic Arms sniper/match rifle medals at 200-500 yards, and it also shot very well indeed at 600 which was the furthest distance range I had access to in those days. I suspect the MV and the bullet's BC wasn't too far off the Swedish service 94/m41 139gn 'Torped' load, and the same likely applies to similar loadings of the Lapua 139gn Scenar and 140 Berger BT, but not the higher BC Berger 140gn LR BT, Hybrids, or the Sierra 142. The Swedes AFAIK simply use selected batches of the old m/41 139gn BT service round and don't have a special match 6.5X55mm.

As far as sight settings go, I set the marked distance on the Soderin dial and sighted myself in with a 6 o'clock hold on the target 'black' at 200, 300, 500 and 600 yards successively keeping a note of typical elevation settings at each distance which I then looked up before range days or matches for years subsequently.

Your info is a great start to the graduations of elevation for the Soderin diopter!!! I can possiable duplicate the M/41torped (Swedish word for torpedo shaped or Spitzer BT in 1941) and range in on the graduations!!! 44gr N160, 140 SMK!!! I can start working around that load and close in on using the trial and error process!!!! Then using approximation math, zero in on the probability factors!!!

This is a project that has been put on the back burner for over 2 decades while raising 2 kids and getting them through college!!!! My kids are more important than any material possession!!! My patience is short and I want the fire solution (tested load development that conform to the designed sight/firearm combination)!!

I'm thinking a 140 SGK in Spitzer BT might be closer to the m/41 139 FMJ BT in BC and DC!!!! That will be my second attempt of duplicating the trajectory match of bullet/sight convergence!!! The performance of SMK will be the tell tale sign!!!! One of my bucket list is to take a Wyoming Trophy Antelope buck at least 500yd or more without telescopic sights!!!!

Thank you so much for the info and congrats on your experimental service target shooting from the past!!! I'M VERY IMPRESSED!!! Hope that my shooting skills are as sharp as yours when shooting a true, very lightly shot, CG63!!!

Like you, I have a rare 1917 all matching M1896B!!!! 2 different layers of cosmoline matched the double arsenal stickers (1946 and 192x, x=some number with an arc at the top) The stock (American Walnut) and forearm (Mediterranean Walnut from France, rare mix) wood were both stamped with the last 5 digits of the receiver SN!! But, the second digit was a 180° mistake!!! 6 and 9 stamping were the same stamp only oriented 180° to each other!!! The Swedish inspectors were a picky breed!!! Mistakes like that very rarely shined in the dark!! And, both have the sagging crown inspectors stamp!!!! Very rare but acceptable mistake (last 3 digit matching) making the rifle unique plus more valuable!!! Plus, the rifle bore, according to the stock disc plate stamping is 263mm!! Very tight and 20 rounds of B&S 139s were hitting rim fire rams at 200m from the sitting/slung position!!!! The rifle and me were one!!!

Bill!!!!!

 

[J Fess]

The Technology that the FURY brings to market is the big deal. As the Case shape and dimensions are altered from traditional "08" cases & intended for very short projectiles in the 2.8" short action AR10-SR25 Magazines. Just take a look at the Case Taper, as a very successful modern wildcatter will be the first to tell you that design grabs the sides of the chamber hence reducing bolts thrust. Add to this the two piece Case which primarily offers a much stronger material to hold primers. Lastly as I mentioned before, the base is enhanced to offer more capacity for powder. So hopefully manufacturers will be quick to offer this Case type in current offerings (6.5-Creedmoor).

The short neck was just to increase the case body length for more propellant volume. For the military load, the sealant acts like a glue to help hold the bullet in place. The projectiles are pretty long, hence the 1 in 7" twist. The goal was a high-BC EPR bullet (steel tip with a copper "slug" inside a gilding metal jacket) for improved long distance performance vs 7.62x51. See rendering below.
The way the brass jacket is connected to the steel base is designed to act like a bellows to reduce the chance of a head separation. Unfortunately, that prevents the jacket from taking much of the load off the base, allowing virtually full chamber pressure against the bolt (this was not seen as a major issue since both competing designs also had high bolt thrust). I have seen hints of an Australian version with a strengthened all-brass case that should indeed be easier on the bolt.
SIG "lawyered" their claims a bit with the 20% lighter, 20-25% Greater Energy bit. They explained: "20% Lighter than the comparable-energy cartridge (270 WSM) and 20-25% more than if this smaller case were loaded at typical 7.62x51 pressures". "Hyper Velocity" is apparently something under 3,000 fps from the service rifle.

 

[Infrequent Shooter]

I think that the 277 Fury COULD be the Next Greatest Rifle Chambering but SIG has so far blown the introduction. There are virtually no civilian rifles to use it.
The 277 Fury has three distinct uses:
- The first is 270 Win performance when using the high-pressure ammo from a 16" barrel, giving a compact suppressed woods rifle.

-The second and third are combined when used as a "Dual Purpose Hunting Rifle" with a 22" or so barrel.
With the less expensive brass cased ammo and below 65Kpsi pressures, it is an excellent traditional-range hunting cartridge. Performance would be near the 270-08 AI or 7mm-08. FWIW, the 277 Fury case has less taper, sharper shoulder and shorter neck than the SAAMI 7mm-08 case, increasing its propellant volume.

- With the high-pressure ammo, it is a short magnum with performance matching the 270 WSM. The expensive hybrid ammo increases the power for longer ranges or larger game like elk. When I worked in NC, one of my friends had never shot a deer at over 150 yards in 40 years of hunting, but had traded his 270 in for a 7mm Rem Mag as a "just in case I ever go hunting Out West" rifle. He admitted to hating the blast and recoil of the 7 Rem Mag, but seemed to be afraid of downloading it. I bet he would have been just fine hunting with the brass cased 277 Fury ammo and had a box or two of the expensive stuff for that Trip Out West.

There are numerous rifle actions that can handle the pressure and bolt thrust. Since the case is the same diameter as a 308, bolt thrust is not excessive when compared to existing larger diameter magnum cartridges. Bolt thrust (max case dia x max chamber pressure) at 80,000psi is lower than that of any of the fatter short magnum (PRC, WSM, RCM or SAUM) cartridges. The smaller diameter case allows thicker barrel walls compared to those other short magnums too. It is possible that other issues, like the rapid rise to max pressure, and wear of the steel case-head against the barrel might be issues, but I have not found any discussions about it.

been waiting for Fury to come up. my choice would have been a 6.5 of some sort..

 

[Infrequent Shooter]

Your info is a great start to the graduations of elevation for the Soderin diopter!!! I can possiable duplicate the M/41torped (Swedish word for torpedo shaped or Spitzer BT in 1941) and range in on the graduations!!! 44gr N160, 140 SMK!!! I can start working around that load and close in on using the trial and error process!!!! Then using approximation math, zero in on the probability factors!!!

This is a project that has been put on the back burner for over 2 decades while raising 2 kids and getting them through college!!!! My kids are more important than any material possession!!! My patience is short and I want the fire solution (tested load development that conform to the designed sight/firearm combination)!!

I'm thinking a 140 SGK in Spitzer BT might be closer to the m/41 139 FMJ BT in BC and DC!!!! That will be my second attempt of duplicating the trajectory match of bullet/sight convergence!!! The performance of SMK will be the tell tale sign!!!! One of my bucket list is to take a Wyoming Trophy Antelope buck at least 500yd or more without telescopic sights!!!!

Thank you so much for the info and congrats on your experimental service target shooting from the past!!! I'M VERY IMPRESSED!!! Hope that my shooting skills are as sharp as yours when shooting a true, very lightly shot, CG63!!!

Bill!!!!!

Norma made a very nice 139 gr bullet that I think was made to recreate that cartridge. If you want try a few, yell at me. No longer made.

 

[J Fess]

Have you tried to size a bi-metal case?

A fellow on another forum had no issues reforming it into 260AI. That's how I know its volume is similar to an AI case. Unfired 6.8x51 (Fury) hybrid case held 56.64 grains of water, after fireforming to 260AI, 57.96. He figured that a fired 277 Fury case would pretty much match the AI.

 

[Wild Bill IV]

Norma made a very nice 139 gr bullet that I think was made to recreate that cartridge. If you want try a few, yell at me. No longer made.

They probably are the cat's meow since Norma made some barrels for these rifle!!!

 

[Infrequent Shooter]

They probably are the cat's meow since Norma made some barrels for these rifle!!!

thats news. never knew that.

 

[RustyPin]

The short neck was just to increase the case body length for more propellant volume. For the military load, the sealant acts like a glue to help hold the bullet in place. The projectiles are pretty long, hence the 1 in 7" twist. The goal was a high-BC EPR bullet (steel tip with a copper "slug" inside a gilding metal jacket) for improved long distance performance vs 7.62x51. See rendering below.
The way the brass jacket is connected to the steel base is designed to act like a bellows to reduce the chance of a head separation. Unfortunately, that prevents the jacket from taking much of the load off the base, allowing virtually full chamber pressure against the bolt (this was not seen as a major issue since both competing designs also had high bolt thrust). I have seen hints of an Australian version with a strengthened all-brass case that should indeed be easier on the bolt.
SIG "lawyered" their claims a bit with the 20% lighter, 20-25% Greater Energy bit. They explained: "20% Lighter than the comparable-energy cartridge (270 WSM) and 20-25% more than if this smaller case were loaded at typical 7.62x51 pressures". "Hyper Velocity" is apparently something under 3,000 fps from the service rifle.

I don't believe the 1-7 twist has as much to do with flight as it does with penetration. As stated on the MAC channel, all copper bullets are in use for training and would warrant a higher twist rate - So this could lend to your statement. His Recent video describes even shorter lighter projectiles in the 112-grain range. I'm not versed in the so-called armor-piercing bullets anyway.

The short neck is ample for the short projectiles the Army designed at the time of inception. The shoulder height was modeled after the 7mm-SGLC & the 30-degree shoulder made for a very short neck. (check some of his load data on that baby-wow) If the two-piece case couldn't be counted on to act like a solid case it couldn't be feasable as a cartridge. Hence, it will have side thrust just like an all-brass case. Without actual scientific data, we're both grasping at straws here. The Case design is rock-solid technology (so far).

Gun & Ammo marketing can be a very fragile thing. Folks panicking and scaring everyone with claims of dangerous bolt thrust issues with zero evidence probably had more to do with backing off claims as Sig is counting on healthy Civilian sales. Historically speaking many cartridges have seen an early death due mainly to non-factual based rumors by Gunwriters or today's Gun-Tubers for example. Military Brass cases for the 7.62x51 have significantly more material than civilian 308 brass, the FURY most likely has some extra strength built in that could equate to the lack of realistic weight benefits. I am looking forward to owning my own FURY Rifle.

 

[M14AMU]

I'm gonna neck my thermos jug down to a phonograph needle!

 

[J Fess]

I don't believe the 1-7 twist has as much to do with flight as it does with penetration. As stated on the MAC channel, all copper bullets are in use for training and would warrant a higher twist rate

The 6.8x51 "ball" load available to civilians from SIG (and tested by MAC) is what the Army calls the Reduced Range Round, "for training purposes only" as mentioned in the 2024 Army ammo budget document ( I can provide a link if you wish). Over 68 million of those rounds have been ordered, almost double of any other round. It is designed with a copper, flat-based bullet (G1 BC 0.330 according to SIG) designed to stay within the Safety Danger Zone of practice ranges designed for 5.56x45. It is designed with wide relief grooves and a flat base to be draggy at transonic and subsonic speeds to limit maximum flight distance. For marketing purposes, SIG calls them "6.8x51 Hybrid Ball" for civilian sales since few would pay almost $3 per round for something labeled "Reduced Range Training Ammo". Apparently, several Youtube testers have been fooled by this.

The US Army switched to the lead-free Enhanced Performance Round (EPR) design around 2010. These are replacing the older M855 and M80 lead-core rounds for general use. Although they are not considered armor piercing, a title currently reserved for tungsten-cored bullets, EPR bullets have steel tips for improved penetration of barriers. The EPR 5.56x45 M855A1 and 7.62x51 M80A1 are the Army's standard bullets now.

The 6.8x51 "Combat Round" is now the general purpose cartridge for this rifle, with about 39 milllion ordered by the end of the FY 2024 budget. It is more expensive, ricochets badly and can fly beyond the Safety Danger Zones of many ranges, so most of the training is with the reduced range round. In this photo from an October 2019 Military.com article, the 6.8mm combat round is the long one on the left. Next are the 7.62 M80A1 (1.187" long, for scale) and the 5.56 M855A1. The bottom photo has some of the pulled 113 gr copper reduced-range bullets (used in the MAC test) which have shown up at American Reloading, along with the hybrid cases.

 

[M14AMU]

No telling????? what that crap is costing taxpayers!!

 

[Jim Hankins]

40 grain bullet in a .22 short case, same ballistics as a.22 lr but eliminating the airspace in the lr case..

 

[ebb]

If it saves one of our young service members it doesn't matter what it cost. The feds will just use it to house a rapist or murderer from South America if the military doesn't use it.

 

[Fuj]

Had a good morning. Finished the last two form dies. Just need to
size down some mandrels. Newlon blanks still have not shown but
may not need them. Monday at the latest, I'll have pics of my "two"
next latest and greatest. The .224 I'm working on will be the most
important......

 

[mauser284]

I have a dream that the ignorant masses that purchase hunting rifles from big box stores and the people that purchase custom rifles for competition or hunting will become less ignorant! Do a few weeks research and arrive at the fact that nothing that fits in a short action or standarnd length action can signifacantly over come the limitations of current brass cartridge technology! It does not matter how fat you make it you can not get around old brass cartridge technology. Full Stop! Go to your FBO turn the beacon and strobe off and shut her down!

We have hit the point of marginal return where we are stupidly dumping large amounts of powder to get insignifacant increase in performance!

If we could convince Sig to liscense their two piece case design it would improve existing cartridges performance so much that it would not make sense to ever develop anything new again! It would push all button rifled barrels and cut rifled barrels to their breaking point!

Barrel life would be so short that it would force OEM's and after market premium barrel makers to switch from pre-WWII steels to serious modern high tech steels and coating and they are already charging far too much for the barrels they make and sell to us. Material cost, machine cost and tooling cost would drasticly increase. The only positive thing that would come from it would be that we would then get true match grade CHF barrels in the USA. None of the now new CHF Match Grade barrel makers would appologise for all the nonsense they have spewed for decades against CHF barrels though they would just pretend that they had never said anything about CHF barrels. They might claim they found a new propritary method of heat treating that made it all possible! LOL

I would like it if every company that makes short actions and long actions would add a bit of length to them instead of giving us more BS priptary cartridges! I would like better steels! All CNC machining from start to finish. A return to forged bolts and forged recievers.

True match grade CHF barrels would be nice from a variety sources. I am ok with having to cut a custom chamber though I do not expect them to have infinite mandrels on hand for match grade chanbers and such!

Significant development in powders to allow for higher performance with less heat and less peak pressure than we currently have. Newer loading techniques that would allow for safe use of multiple powders in one case!

Would love to see the ability to use depleted uranium bullet or tungsten core bullets made with extreme precision for super heavy long ELD bullets for caliber use to match Sig's higher pressure levels in 2 piece case design!

 

[CJ6]

Might as well use a full Stellite barrel at xxxxx a pop.

 

[mauser284]

On the 6.8x51 Sig Furry not having it! On principal alone I would never ever let that cartridge near a rifle on own just because of the absolute bellow 73 IQ point choice of 6.8mm and why it was chosen over 7mm or 6.5mm bullets especially when you look at the equally stupid bullet weight choice, velocity choice, and barrel length choice. The only way I change my mind about this is if an Angle of the Lord desecended from Hevan and said this was to be the standard! Anything short of that which I seriously doubt will ever happen and the stupidness behind most of the design designs of this cartridge and the rifle to fire it are more than I can bear on principal alone. That is before you ask me professionaly what I think based on science, logic, engineering and evidence based decesion making.

Now if they changed it to a heavier than currently specified 6.5mm or 7mm bullet, lengthed the barrel, and reduced the price from $15 a round according to most recent article in Stars & Stripes maybe I would change my mind!

It would seem that 85% of NATO is moving to the HK416 in 5,56 NATO. I think Serbia(?) has moved to the 6.5 Grendel. A lot of countries non-NATO countries are moving towards 6.5 Creedmoor in a FN M48 platform!

Sadly the US Miltary Procurment system has been broken and corrupt since before the U.S. Civil War and the pencil pushers riding the desks in the Pentagon are still as out of touch as ever!

Ammo matters more than anything else traditionaly. Ammo on a propritary foot print with limited manufacturing ability in the USA or globaly is seldom the way to roll into things with a new rifle design. We have a lot of ammo shortages and weapon system shortages due to the Proxy War in the Ukraine. NATO likewise does not have manufacturing ability for SIG's new design!

 

[CJ6]

I like the 277 Fury for a hunting rifle. I ordered a reamer (waiting for it) I intend to use "normal " brass for it, although I have some bi-metal factory ammo as well.
The Fury will round out the 308 base factory cartridges.

 

[RustyPin]

On the 6.8x51 Sig Furry not having it! On principal alone I would never ever let that cartridge near a rifle on own just because of the absolute bellow 73 IQ .... That is before you ask me professionally what I think based on science, logic, engineering and evidence based decision making. .....

Sadly the US Miltary Procurment system has been broken and corrupt since before the U.S. Civil War and the pencil pushers riding the desks in the Pentagon are still as out of touch as ever!

It may take a few years of service, but the overflow will end up in Civilian hands eventually.