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What's the next greatest rifle chambering?

On principal alone I would never ever let that cartridge near a rifle on own just because of the absolute bellow 73 IQ point choice of 6.8mm and why it was chosen over 7mm or 6.5mm bullets especially when you look at the equally stupid bullet weight choice, velocity choice, and barrel length choice.


Over the decades, 6.8mm / 270 has on more than one occasion been identified as the ideal military bullet diameter based on ballistics (internal, external, and terminal). The 1950 British Ideal Calibre Panel looking at what proposed new assault rifles should be built around initially chose it, but went for an intermediate size 7mm in the end, the 280/30 aka 280 British or 7X49mm. I'm sure that an interwar US rifle design to replace the 30-06 M1903 also used a 270. I thought it was the Pedersen automatic rifle, but research shows it as a seven. Then there's the 6.8mm SPC which seems to have died after minimal use.

However, that was then, and in the 2020s, there is so much experience with 6.5s and 7s and in successful bullet design, I agree that 6.8/270 has to be an absolutely perverse choice now. And that's before we get into the other aspects of this strange cartridge design which defy every known bit of empirical military experience and common sense that say build on what we know works allied to KISS (keep it simple, stupid).

To me, the whole saga is reminiscent of the millions of D-Marks and years of R&D resources H&K and others spent on the caseless cartridge / G11 rifle saga which in the end produced nothing militarily usable either by that company or anyone else.
 
Now if they changed it to a heavier than currently specified 6.5mm or 7mm bullet, lengthed the barrel, and reduced the price from $15 a round according to most recent article in Stars & Stripes maybe I would change my mind!
I have my doubts about the NGSW project and its weapons, but there is a tremendous amount of confusing and incorrect cost info out there. I have attached a link to the massive Army ammunition budget so you can see what these cartridges actually cost. Descriptions of the NGSW can be found around page 96 of the PDF (labeled "Volume 1-82" in the doc). The high-pressure "Next Generation Combat Round (hardened steel tip) has a price of $2.15 per round for 2024 (around page 100 of the PDF). Although the price is coming down, it will likely remain more than its 7.6x51 counterpart, purchased with machinegun link for $0.91 per round (page 78).
The "$15 round" that gets so much press is limited production super-duper, tungsten penetrator Special Purpose Round which is currently going for $12.37 each (page 112). It is listed as a "combat only, war reserve item". Believe it or not, this is actually cheaper than the 7.62x51 version, the "Advanced Armor Piercing XM1158" round that the Army paid $15.18 and $14.30 for in 2022 and 2023, respectively (page 93).

 
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Over the decades, 6.8mm / 270 has on more than one occasion been identified as the ideal military bullet diameter based on ballistics (internal, external, and terminal)...

However, that was then, and in the 2020s, there is so much experience with 6.5s and 7s and in successful bullet design, I agree that 6.8/270 has to be an absolutely perverse choice now.
I agree. It appears that this started with the "Lightweight Intermediate Caliber Cartridge" idea, but sadly got out of hand after a visit from the "Good-Idea Fairy". "Let's have a short-barreled weapon that defeats modern body armor at long range". My understanding was that the US was looking seriously at the 6.5mm, as late as the mid 2010's, but the story I read was that the shift to lower density lead-free bullets pushed it back up to 6.8mm. Besides, the .270 is an All-American caliber. I have a cynical rating system for nonsensical decisions based on the amount of beer I assume was needed to produce the final result. I currently rate the NGSW 6.8x51 as a 3-kegger.

Interestingly, FN. followed through with the original concept and developed something called the "Lightweight Intermediate Caliber Cartridge" (LICC) with an interesting steel walled case from Shell Shock, the 6.5x43. The shape of the case is close to that of the 6mm GT, so a little longer than Dasher, FWIW.
Its performance is so close to that of the 6.5 Creedmoor that I don't think it would become The Next Great Rifle Chambering unless possibly adopted by NATO someday.
6.5x43 264 LICC.jpg
 
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My next two for the coming year......My shortened 284 Winchester, known
as the 284-ELF is now necked down to be the .264-ELF. There are no more
7mm bullets on the market for me to continue to compete with this in the
short range game, which I prefer......Next is my new look at the .222 Remington.
Using the rebated 22 Nosler case, I shortened this case to have the same
dimensions as the .222 Remington case, but one. A bigger boiler room. It
will a .420" base where the .222 has a .376 base. For sizing issues on the push
dies, I left the shoulder angle stock. I will however have the reamer cut for a
30 degree......This case will primarily be used for 52 thru 55 grain bullets. Going
to be interesting to see what it can do with being able to get some more H4895
in it, with what the original enjoyed.

Left is the 284 Winchester with my ELF, and on the right is the ?? Have not come
up with a name yet. For the time being it's just a short Nosler with a long neck.
It's sitting next to a .223 Remington.

Maybe not yours but It's my latest and greatest.....Stay tuned
 

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Actually the little pointed ear guy was never a thing or considered.

My good friend, fellow shooter, and gunsmith, "Ethan Lam", got me out
of a jam with this project early on when my lathe went down, I spec'd
him what to do, and left him alone with it. The ELF came from his initials
and mine. This one stuck and I just left it alone. Normally on anyone of
my cats, I just use the caliber and type. My SA284 cat I have been shooting
the most just simple means "Short Action 284". This new .222 I'm in the
works with has me leaning to "LN-22-NSS" Long Neck 22 Nosler short.
It just seems too long of a name though and don't want to refer to Nosler.
I'll come up with something......
 
40 grain bullet in a .22 short case, same ballistics as a.22 lr but eliminating the airspace in the lr case..
Close. 45-50gr projectiles in a shortened case to maintain the same cartridge "headspace".

Higher BC and better case fill. Would require more twist but most of the serious guys would not blink an eye including me. While on the subject, a supply of match grade ammo from any manufaturer that could keep the supply line flowing... at this point would be worth a lot. I'm 8 months into a waiting list for an ammo order now.
 
Your info is a great start to the graduations of elevation for the Soderin diopter!!! I can possiable duplicate the M/41torped (Swedish word for torpedo shaped or Spitzer BT in 1941) and range in on the graduations!!! 44gr N160, 140 SMK!!! I can start working around that load and close in on using the trial and error process!!!! Then using approximation math, zero in on the probability factors!!!

This is a project that has been put on the back burner for over 2 decades while raising 2 kids and getting them through college!!!! My kids are more important than any material possession!!! My patience is short and I want the fire solution (tested load development that conform to the designed sight/firearm combination)!!

I'm thinking a 140 SGK in Spitzer BT might be closer to the m/41 139 FMJ BT in BC and DC!!!! That will be my second attempt of duplicating the trajectory match of bullet/sight convergence!!! The performance of SMK will be the tell tale sign!!!! One of my bucket list is to take a Wyoming Trophy Antelope buck at least 500yd or more without telescopic sights!!!!

Thank you so much for the info and congrats on your experimental service target shooting from the past!!! I'M VERY IMPRESSED!!! Hope that my shooting skills are as sharp as yours when shooting a true, very lightly shot, CG63!!!

Like you, I have a rare 1917 all matching M1896B!!!! 2 different layers of cosmoline matched the double arsenal stickers (1946 and 192x, x=some number with an arc at the top) The stock (American Walnut) and forearm (Mediterranean Walnut from France, rare mix) wood were both stamped with the last 5 digits of the receiver SN!! But, the second digit was a 180° mistake!!! 6 and 9 stamping were the same stamp only oriented 180° to each other!!! The Swedish inspectors were a picky breed!!! Mistakes like that very rarely shined in the dark!! And, both have the sagging crown inspectors stamp!!!! Very rare but acceptable mistake (last 3 digit matching) making the rifle unique plus more valuable!!! Plus, the rifle bore, according to the stock disc plate stamping is 263mm!! Very tight and 20 rounds of B&S 139s were hitting rim fire rams at 200m from the sitting/slung position!!!! The rifle and me were one!!!

Bill!!!!!
Damn son I'll give you a dollar if you use a period in your next post.
 
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With the hobby of wildcatting, i would go to gun shows and look
for quantities of brass, not in the mainstream. Some of them early
cases could be just catastrophic. I sectioned a 6.5 Carcano that looked
promising for a varmint cartridge. It was puzzling to see that it was
a balloon head case which design was used in pistol cases of years
gone by. They went to the scrap yard. Years later, I discovered that
this case was used as a black powder Hollywood prop. From that
time forward, any weird lot I purchased, went under the knife first.

Japanese cases, and mainly the 7.7's, I started to hoard. Hard to
find was the 6.5 Jap......Funny enough about these though, the
Japanese actually had the first version of the Creedmoor, and that's
no lie......LOL

So does anyone make, a true 6.5 short range BR bullet ?? VLD bullets
need not apply, and must be under 115gr in weight. i have a design,
I need to look at since my 7mm bullets are now depleted, and no more
will be made. It's quite possible there are none, or someone would have
a 6.5BR......

Let's see what trouble I can get into today......

Can you expand on the 'Jap' 6.5 Creed? enquiring minds...
 
nothing new but the 6xc Tubb with 115 gr .64bc nose ringed sierras at 2850 out of my 21 bbl deer rifle is pretty nice and no need for ladder work to get to max 1/2 moa. So how could you improve on this?!
 
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nothing new but the 6xc Tubb with 115 gr .64bc nose ringed sierras at 2850 out of my 21 bbl deer rifle is pretty nice and no need for ladder work to get to max 1/2 moa. So how could you improve on this?!
Can you explain why? Comparisons to 6mm-Creed & 6-6.5x47 Lapua, the affordable 243?
 
I think most would agree that there isn't much that hasn't been done before and there isn't many "gaps" in the ballistic net that aren't being covered with current cartridges.

I feel the next step forward will be in the direction of high performance cartridges similar to the .277 Sig with a steel or some form of reinforced base. OR propellants that can provide more velocity with less pressure, effectively raising the bar of all cartridges and allow exiting actions and barrels to be used.

Aside from the above "the next greatest rifle chambering" will be the one that is marketed best and has rifles, ammunition, brass and dies available in volumes to meet demand.

Look at the WSSM line of rounds. Good concept but it required specific brass and unique actions and magazines to make them work. Most manufactures wouldn't tool up for such a odd cartridge. 17wsm. . . . . Again good concept and filled a hole in the net but odd cartridge size and not supported by suitable rifles and ammunition manufacturers.

22 and 6mm ARC. We all know the pedigree of the design, they have huge potential and Hornady will likely do their part with loaded ammo and brass BUT rifle manufacturers are going to have issues getting it to feed because it's short and fat and who knows if we will see premium brass in quantity. For the ballistic net they don't really do anything a 22-250, 243, 6mmCM can't.

We are already seeing calibres taper off the back. Lapua aren't making 222, 22-250, 6.5-284 or 284. Nothing wrong with them BUT it starts to force people down the road of 22 ARC, 6.5CM, 7PRC, 7-6.5PRC and that plays a part in "the next greatest rifle chambering"
 
The steel case head was invented many years ago buy elk hunters from Pennsylvania. They shoot elk at impossible distances with African big game cartridges neck down to 30 or 338 diameter. Daryl Castle comes to mind but I am not sure if he invented it or just made the world know about it. The wsm wssm line of cases was indeed something new and I thought they were world changers, just didn't seem to work out like i thought. New and what some think is new are two different things. I love the Burris signature Z rings but Burris invented nothing, I've seen Jewell rings just like them but have been told he didn't come up with the idea. H&K G11 was a cool idea but it never seemed to live up to its potential and died. Some of the rifles that were spawned from the SPIW project were truly innovative some not so much. I suspect that is the reason that Colt firearms is now owned by CZ. It had been almost a century since they came up with something new. The Air Force is looking at the NGAD when the rest of the world hasn't even caught up with our latest generation fighter. But the grunt on the ground carries a rifle that is 1950s technology. Maybe its the way of our American society all we get from Hollywood these days is a remake of something already done. I am pretty sure its the schools. Instead of complaining about the way things are why not invent something that will change it. About 15 years ago the guys at work would go to lunch together and we tried some places new every now and then. We ate at a place that I thought was a little too ritzy for lunch and had a kid getting ready to go to college, He proudly announced he was going to law school and would specialize in native American law and climate change. I said to him " so you don't want to fix anything just bitch about it, If you wanted to fix things you would become an engineer?' He walked away in silence. Computers seem to be getting all the original thought.
 
I watched a real good video on Youtube re bigger cartridges for military. Some real crusty experienced Vets. Takeaway: soldiers want more ammo to carry. Weight is an SOB. At work I know a grizzled native vet from African continent wars. I forget if it was Congo, Niger or where. He was a true war fighter. We talked about AK vs heavier more accurate FA.
He said all the guys in the field wanted a lighter FA. Keep in mind, these guys were humping it in the bush in very rough conditions.

For US, any advantage in defeating armor vs China will be very short lived. You can bet China has own version of Fury working right now.

Is it settled military doctrine/belief that muzzle brake is best for combat? I know that shooting next to a 'brake kicks my ass. IMO, big blast, noise is directly proportional to less accuracy.
 
Can you explain why? Comparisons to 6mm-Creed & 6-6.5x47 Lapua, the affordable 243?
the throat and leade of the tubb design chamber. Shoulder angle, efficiency and brass life due to srp
 
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