What Next for Remington & Rem 700?

[JimT]

That comment was made in regards to completely untouched factory condition actions. As far as the overall design and factory aftermarket offerings, you can’t beat the 700. But I would still buy a custom made 700 footprint copy before ever buying another factory 700 and having to do a ton of work to make it right.

I’ve heard lots of praise for the RR 700 actions and I have 2 of them to prove it.

 

[shoot4fun]

Just a dance going on. There's always Huntsville if or when the music stops and there's not enough chairs.

Not necessarily. The city of Huntsville went out on a limb to get Remington. Remington made big promises that they never intended to keep. The Huntsville facility, formerly Chyrsler, belonged to the city and I have read that it was basically foreclosed on when Remington went bankrupt.
I do honestly believe that is why Roundhill is putting its hopes of success of Ilon.

 

[jackieschmidt]

Everybody i see gripe about remington quality and finish bought a $379 special from academy

Well, yeh.
Around five years ago, I bought a Tupperware stocked 700 in 30-06 at Academy for about $325 for my son. I did nothing but put a decent trigger on it and do a good bedding job.

The thing would shoot 3 shot 3/4 inch groups at 100 with a case full of 4831 and a 178 grn Amax, feed reliably, and was easy to carry.

Great hunting rifle.

 

[LHSmith]

Nothing wrong with those tupperware stocks. I have a .300 win Mag. that shoots incredibly well. After you adjust the trigger it's all in the luck of the draw with the barrel you get IMO.
The 3 rings of steel is the hallmark of the 700 action design, so that should be kept. The ADL walmart specials are a great idea for the basic hunter looking for a rifle and for the guy who wants to customize with aftermarket parts. Most of the other models should be kept, along with the model 7. NO bargain store models with plastic receivers. Give up on the custom shop. You can't sell a "benchrest" rifle that won't even compete with a custom that can be built for half of what Remington costs and takes twice as long to build.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Theyre just fine out of the box for 99.8% of people that have them, even with a new trigger and barrel they work way better than youre led to believe. You dont have to make it a $1000 remington to make it nicer than any other factory action out there.

I disagree. When many 700s have extraction cam timing issues they don’t work very well at all. Nothing more frustrating for a person having to beat the bolt back with their hand or mallet and it’s not a simple fix either. I have never had extraction timing issues with any other action, factory or custom. That is unacceptable.

There are many brands of factory actions that cycle and operate much smoother and more reliably than a 700. Most others usually have better standard triggers supplied with them, side bolt releases, better magazines with center feeding designs, better extractors, and a higher level of precision in the machining that results in a truer receiver and better bolt lug contact on the abutments.

I don’t think there is a person here that would ever claim a factory 700 action could ever be nicer than a Tikka or Sako. My Sako is leaps and bounds nicer than any factory 700. So yes, you pretty much need to spend $800-$1000 on a factory 700 when all is said and done for it to be as nice or nicer than offerings from some of the other manufacturers.

I respect what Remington did to help the shooting world (not counting their more recent events), but if a person is being really honest with themselves, they know that the factory produced 700 is a fading shadow in rifle industry because they have failed to innovate or improve upon the original design. How could Remington be so blind not to see that they were being left in the dust? The custom action builders and gunsmiths modifying the 700 have been showing Remington what the action design should be for many years now. But they failed to listen...

 

[Capt. Oblivious]

Do you need a new set of prescription glasses? Lol.

Howa makes a great factory action, but where do I start on the differences between the 1500 and Rem 700.....
-Completely different triggers and hanger systems.
-Howa receiver is flat bottom with integral recoil lug, Remington is round with separate lug.
-Howa uses a far superior M16 extractor.
-Scope rails and mounts are completely different.
-Stock inletting differences are like night and day.
-Then you can add in the metric threading differences.

The only real similarity is that they both have two bolt recoil lugs. I guess maybe the bottom metal is similar too but the Howa bottom metal is a lot beefier

Howa 1500 is much more akin in receiver design to the Winchester Model 70. The trigger is more akin to Tikka and Sako

Howa is basically an updated clone of the older L series Sakos

Over here " semi custom" Howas out number Remington's close to 10/1 on any shooting range now, its a shame that a rifle name like the 700 doesn't carry the same allure anymore but for a little less than a 700 you can get n Howa and just about put it in any half decent stock of your choice over here. You still have the die hard fans that prefer a reworked 700 but I cant recall in recent times that any one suggested anything else than a Tikka or How to anyone that wanted a off the shelf rifle or a "donor" for the action

 

[LHSmith]

I am the exception to the rule. I prefer a Remington 700 over a Sako or Tikka- I have or had both. The Sako was a .222 Hvy bbl. with the nicest piece of wood I've seen, but I just was not happy with it's accuracy. Also had a Colt Sauer .243 , smooth action, looked great, but not accurate enough. Ditto a Ruger Swift HB.
Never owed a Savage bolt, but shot and handled a bunch- I still don't have a desire for one. Between my kids and I we have a lot of 700's and model 7's. For me, again being an oddball, all of mine are ADL's because I like them and do not see any inconvenience as I don't road hunt and need to get rid of rounds quickly.I have taken two and built full blown BR rifles out of them. Because it's like the small block Chevy with a vast amount of aftermarket parts/components, many are no longer "factory". Most have bolt timing (except the BR rifles) that is not optimal, but despite handloading, I don't have extraction issues if I use cases that don't have a high number times fired and FLS everytime. I never had any parts fail. A 700 was my first rifle (1966) and it remains the bolt action design I am most comfortable with.
In the current state of things, I could part out my 700's for much more than I paid for them. Other bolt models of different manufacture may have decent resale value, but the number of potential buyers will not be near as great.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Howa is basically an updated clone of the older L series Sakos

Over here " semi custom" Howas out number Remington's close to 10/1 on any shooting range now, its a shame that a rifle name like the 700 doesn't carry the same allure anymore but for a little less than a 700 you can get n Howa and just about put it in any half decent stock of your choice over here. You still have the die hard fans that prefer a reworked 700 but I cant recall in recent times that any one suggested anything else than a Tikka or How to anyone that wanted a off the shelf rifle or a "donor" for the action

Yeah that’s right. I didn’t think of that. The Howa 1500 is nearly identical to the old L61 Finnbear but with an updated Tikka/Sako style trigger and stronger M16 extractor.

The old Tikka LSA 55/65 actions were really nice too. The LSA design was way ahead of it’s time with a free floating barrel, integral scope rail, detachable box mag, and super smooth cycling. Still one of the nicest factory actions a person can have today if you are lucky enough to find one.

 

[FNSafari]

As someone who spent a bunch of years in marketing for semiconductor components, it's an interesting question on how Remington, going forward, would be best positioned in the market.

I think a good question is: Why would someone want to buy a Remington?
With Remington's name recognition and history, I think something 'traditional' that evoked the history and what Remington is known for.
While the current market would probably buy anything they make, their longer term survival may depend on rebuilding their 'brand' - i.e., what does Remington stand for?

Isn't Remington known for both the accuracy of the model 700 and the 870? Maybe they could lead with solid versions of those.
And, as mentioned, the 700 needs to include a trigger and stock worthy of the name and history.

A 'bolder' approach might be to go all in on specific subsegment with a specific product so they can make an attention getting statement - e.g., guaranteeing 1/2 MOA [1/4 MOA would be better] accuracy, the worlds lightest/most reliable hunting rifle, partnering with a chassis manufacturer - the point would be not necessarily based on the market size but more on making a statement.

Boy, guaranteeing .250MOA accuracy would be a bit of a two edge sword. Achieving that would require, imo, superbly made lapped barrels, actions equal to a custom in areas like thread squareness, lug engagement, perfectly flat action face, etc. Getting there would cost $$ and in a hunting or varmint rifle I don't know if enough would pay the price to make it practical. Considerable attention to details will get you 1/2" but it would take a yeoman effort to get to .25", consistently.

 

[DaveTooley]

Not necessarily. The city of Huntsville went out on a limb to get Remington. Remington made big promises that they never intended to keep. The Huntsville facility, formerly Chyrsler, belonged to the city and I have read that it was basically foreclosed on when Remington went bankrupt.
I do honestly believe that is why Roundhill is putting its hopes of success of Ilon.

All true about the old Remington. Today is a new day.

 

[JimT]

Yeah that’s right. I didn’t think of that. The Howa 1500 is nearly identical to the old L61 Finnbear but with an updated Tikka/Sako style trigger and stronger M16 extractor.

The old Tikka LSA 55/65 actions were really nice too. The LSA design was way ahead of it’s time with a free floating barrel, integral scope rail, detachable box mag, and super smooth cycling. Still one of the nicest factory actions a person can have today if you are lucky enough to find one.

Not sure what you are talking about in your first paragraph, but a Howa 1500 doesn’t resemble any L61R I ever had. Rifleshooter magazine appears to agree:


“The top of the Howa 1500’s steel barreled action is rounded, with a lower rear bridge. The bottom has an integral tapered recoil lug and flat bottom. Years ago Howa started producing bolt action rifles that were a close copy of an older SAKO design (link), that influence is absent in the 1500. I found the lower half somewhat reminiscent of a push feed Winchester M70 while the top reminds me of a Remington 700.”

 

[CharlieNC]

There is no shortage of cheap rifle offerings in the market. You get what you pay for. Fighting to get a higher share of a low margin market with price does not build profitability. Somebody who knows the market and customer base needs to define the necessary product performance and price vs cost which would spell success. Hint, I've never worked with accountants who could do this and most do not understand the principle.

 

[LarryDScott]

In defense of the 700, I have owned many and one thing I guess I am lucky on, I never had the first one w/bolt timing issues.
Many yrs ago there was an article in Varmint Hunter Magazine. Mike Bryant a well none Gunsmith acquired 2 NEW 40X rifles, took them down and proved to the world there was nothing done to those actions from the factory from an accuracy stand point. He posted all the numbers at different points, before and after truing. There was a very noticeable difference in the numbers. The highly touted 40XBR is no different. I owned 4 of those on my last attempt at shooting before I had to quit for health reasons. All 4 were out of spec as far as being true. My gunsmith, Harvey McCraw took care of those issues. Did they shoot better after the fact, I don't know. None we fired w/the old barrels, to have a comparison, and when I sold out, 2 of them remained unfired. The ones I did shoot were absolutely fine, and in more capable hands would be winners in competition.
I know the Remington isn't going to satisfy the right bolt left eject or bottom eject crowd, but if you want a rifle that shoots well, and will fit into many classes., the solid bottom 700 or 40x is worth the investment. Your mileage may vary. You can view a couple of those 40xs on my website. www.greatscotttriggers.com
Click the buttons at the top of the page. LDS

 

[urbanrifleman]

Many yrs ago there was an article in Varmint Hunter Magazine. Mike Bryant a well none Gunsmith acquired 2 NEW 40X rifles, took them down and proved to the world there was nothing done to those actions from the factory from an accuracy stand point. He posted all the numbers at different points, before and after truing. There was a very noticeable difference in the numbers.

I have asked over and over if anyone had ever proved that "trueing" improved the groups. No on here on this board has ever answered to the affirmative, that ANYONE had ever tested the "fact" that trued actions shoot better. As you posted, a typical before and after test (your post is the first mention). The answer is always well a trued action will obviously shoot better, no need to test it, it would cost too much to do, etc etc

I will tell you this, if you go "trueing" your action and then complain about the total lack of primary extraction afterwards... hmmm... just saying.

I have two famous friends that have built literally thousands of Remington 700 based rifles and tested just about everything in regards to the Remington 700, and both said the same thing (completely separately). Truing will not shrink groups "unless the thing is a total basket case" (which most are not). One did say that a tighter fitting bolt body will shrink groups, simply due to the kick up on the back of the bolt from the trigger.

 

[457ciSBC]

I wouldn’t hold my breath on the new owners making any great engineering changes. I imagine the main goal is to make the new company solvent.

 

[shoot4fun]

All true about the old Remington. Today is a new day.

While it is the "new" Remington it not the "new" Huntsville. They got burned and are not likely to even renegotiate a deal without having it stronger than before. The only possible asset Roundhill would have in making a deal is that they are a property management fund and have a good idea about how to make property deals.
One of the big things that the "old" company did not do was keep up with the hiring and employment terms of their agreement. It also has to be pretty well known that QC was no better, sadly, in AL than it was at Ilon.

 

[Capt. Oblivious]

Yeah that’s right. I didn’t think of that. The Howa 1500 is nearly identical to the old L61 Finnbear but with an updated Tikka/Sako style trigger and stronger M16 extractor.

The old Tikka LSA 55/65 actions were really nice too. The LSA design was way ahead of it’s time with a free floating barrel, integral scope rail, detachable box mag, and super smooth cycling. Still one of the nicest factory actions a person can have today if you are lucky enough to find one.

Hahah only reason I remebered is because Im the biggest Sako fan boy and my friends always “inform” me that Sakos are just Howa clones but Howas are decent. My shooting partner has a 6Dasher build on a Howa/weatherby action and that thing is scary, every guy except one in my shooting circle has a rifle build on a Howa action and they all shoot, over here we have some very nice local made chassis and stocks for them as well

 

[Capt. Oblivious]

Howa/Krieger Dasher with a locally made stock and very nicely “tuned” trigger in the back and the real mccoy “sako” 6SLR

 

[INTJ]

That comment was made in regards to completely untouched factory condition actions. As far as the overall design and factory aftermarket offerings, you can’t beat the 700. But I would still buy a custom made 700 footprint copy before ever buying another factory 700 and having to do a ton of work to make it right.

I don't even think they are that great of a design. I had them for years and had extraction issues, feeding issues, galling issues, etc. They have never had the reliability and durability of commercial Mausers and Model 70s, and there is nothing special about the 700 action that allows a more accurate rifle than other actions.

The 700 series was designed as an inexpensive to manufacture action. Because steel quality had dramatically improved during WW-II, the actions were strong. Since manufacturing methods had improved, they were able to make a cheap rifle shoot well. Because they were inexpensive and worked okay they became very popular, and because they were popular lots of gunsmiths learned how to work on them and a big aftermarket developed for them.

The huge appeal for customizing Remmys came primarily because they were inexpensive. You could get a custom rifle built on a 700 for much less than a Mauser or M-70 action.

Nowadays it is not less expensive to build on a Remington. Add to that all the the affordable custom actions that come pretty much trued up all ready and are a superior design, and it's has to make a case for Remington 700s any more.

And if anyone would make a good quality CRF M-70 action clone for $800-$1000, I'd dump my M-70s and use the custom.

 

[JDBraddy]

I started out trying to fix up Rem 700's and get them to shoot like the customs that I couldn't afford. I have always owned one or more. I've since moved up over time and now own custom rifles with Bat and Borden actions, but have never had to tinker or work to get or keep them shooting well, so I have never shot them as much, or grabbed them as often to run to the range and try the next tweek. I owned a Savage ONCE, but have never even shot or considered Tika's, TC's, Winchesters, Rugers, ETC.... Just seems strange to think their might not be any more, but Perhapse they will come back in some form. Perhapse in the mean-time it will be the excuse I need to check out the others.