What makes custom bullets better.

[P1ZombieKiller]

Those are 308 bullets. They wouldn't work well in your 6x47.

When I shot furry critters with my 6br's, I used Hornady V-max. Haven't done that in many years, so I am sure there are other options.

 

[Bc'z]

Yeah the out come wouldn't be pretty.

 

[antelopedundee]

In production, same bullet coming off of 5 different machines, which in reality is 5 different dies. Spoken with Sierra years ago about this. Fell on deaf ears. Not sure about today's world. Not picking on Sierra as they make a quality product. This conversation was probably 20 yrs ago.

Paul

Funny I heard the same thing about 20 years ago also. Even heard that they hired a consultant who suggested that they not mix bullets from different dies [a no brainer observation] advice which they apparently ignored.

 

[antelopedundee]

More often than not, it is that the custom makers can and do take the time to make each bullet as consistent as they can. Sort of like one bullet at a time.
Where as the major makers are running them out thousands a minute. While they are pretty darn good at making bullets, they just can not be as closely matched as the custom one's are.

The fact that you can buy blems, off spec, etc by the 10s of pounds would attest to that.

 

[SGK]

I have no idea who told you this, but they were dead wrong, or you completely misunderstood them. They’ve only mixed bullets from different machines in one circumstance, and that was on the direct insistance of the customer; Lake City Army Ammunition Plant. Aside from that (and LCAAP has even discontinued this practice, quite some time ago), the bullets in any given box came off one machine, and one machine only. Changing a form die results in the lot being removed ended, and a new lot begun, so there should never be bullets made from different form dies inn the same box, either.

Sorry, but this old canard has been floating around since some benchrest shooter wrote about it in a book, and it’s been treated as gospel ever since. I can almost assure you that he never once set foot in the plant, and simply wrote down what he assumed they did. Drive a stake through this one’s heart and be done with it!

What then is the explanation for the rather discrete buckets observed in post 3? Or is your rebuttal only applicable to Sierra? I'm not suggesting the Hornady's are meant to be world-leading but they do claim it as a match bullet and intend uniformity. 'Different dies' into one lot certainly would explain things considerably, although it would seem to be a no-brainer not to mix die lots.

I recognise one can pay a massive premium for custom, ultra quality but I was surprised to see the variation I did. My presumption - untested - is that there is a decent correlation between weight and BBTO leading to ballistic differences at the most basic level.

 

[SGK]

I just measured 100 Berger 30 cal 168 gr Hybrid.

• 0.5835" 1
• 0.5840-45" 93
• 0.5850" 4
• 0.5860" 2

I suspect I won't be buying any more Hornady bullets....

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Off track but not really.
So I've looked into some customs for my 6x45 lite weight stuff in the 62- 69 gr range.
Then it come to the ogive specs.
What does the 6,7,8 ogive and the like mean?

It's actually called "caliber of ogive." The way you calculate that number for a tangent ogive (curved, as opposed to a secant ogive which is straight,) is you figure out the radius of the circle formed by the ogive and then divide that number by the caliber of the bullet. Then I suspect that number is rounded off to get the 6, 7, 8 and so on. When you have that number, you can compare the ogives of different caliber bullets as the value is no longer tied to the caliber of the bullet. An 8 caliber of ogive for a 7mm is the same as an 8 caliber of ogive for .308 or a 6mm, etc.

The larger the number, the sleeker the bullet, which also means the longer the bullet.

 

[geo.ulrich]

The " ogive" number is a radius, equaling the ogive x's the caliber. an 8 ogive 22 caliber would be .224 x's 8 = 1,792 radius an 8 ogive 30 caliber would be ,308 x's 8 =2.464 radius a secant radius is moved off tangent to get a higher number radius for length of jacket used it still is a radius..

 

[KevinThomas]

What then is the explanation for the rather discrete buckets observed in post 3? Or is your rebuttal only applicable to Sierra? I'm not suggesting the Hornady's are meant to be world-leading but they do claim it as a match bullet and intend uniformity. 'Different dies' into one lot certainly would explain things considerably, although it would seem to be a no-brainer not to mix die lots.

I recognise one can pay a massive premium for custom, ultra quality but I was surprised to see the variation I did. My presumption - untested - is that there is a decent correlation between weight and BBTO leading to ballistic differences at the most basic level.

I can speak from experience with regards to Sierra, Berger and Lapua, but I really have a hard time envisioning any manufacturer who was concerned about quality or accuracy mixing bullets from different presses, as was described. Just makes no sense whatsoever unless they’re providing massive amounts of bullets that are intended to be used in crap ammo.

 

[SGK]

I decided to call Hornady. In short they simply said they don't maintain a production tolerance spec on BBTO. "The bullets are designed to be shot for accuracy" and once we have that design "we try to maintain as close a tolerance as possible." And so ends my relationship with Hornady. The service rep did indicate there was a 0.1 gr tolerance for weight (52 to 51.9 gr in this case). I haven't bothered to check the bunches for weight variance.

 

[antelopedundee]

I can speak from experience with regards to Sierra, Berger and Lapua, but I really have a hard time envisioning any manufacturer who was concerned about quality or accuracy mixing bullets from different presses, as was described. Just makes no sense whatsoever unless they’re providing massive amounts of bullets that are intended to be used in crap ammo.

I have some Sierra .25 cal 90 grain HPBT that you can see the difference in bullets from the same box just by looking at them. Had them for years tho. They aren't new manufacture.

 

[antelopedundee]

I decided to call Hornady. In short they simply said they don't maintain a production tolerance spec on BBTO. "The bullets are designed to be shot for accuracy" and once we have that design "we try to maintain as close a tolerance as possible." And so ends my relationship with Hornady. The service rep did indicate there was a 0.1 gr tolerance for weight (52 to 51.9 gr in this case). I haven't bothered to check the bunches for weight variance.

They still pull random bullets off of the press and shoot them don't they?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I can speak from experience with regards to Sierra, Berger and Lapua, but I really have a hard time envisioning any manufacturer who was concerned about quality or accuracy mixing bullets from different presses, as was described. Just makes no sense whatsoever unless they’re providing massive amounts of bullets that are intended to be used in crap ammo.

How would a guy explain this away?

 

[Bc'z]

View attachment 1092896


How would a guy explain this away?

That's been my experience with eldx's

 

[SGK]

Incidentally there appears to be no correlation between BBTO and weight in my Hornady ELD-M 52 gr 22 cal. I have loaded the four shortest (see post 3) but I weighed the next shortest BBTO bunch: 51.8-51.9 grains. I also weighed a selection of the longest bunch. There I had a spread of 51.62 - 51.94 gr. Go figure.

 

[BenPerfected]

1. J4 jackets are held to low three digit tolerances.
2. Most custom makers form their own cores from rolls of wire.
3. " " make their bullets in batches of 1000, not 100,000. Think handmade, one at a time.
4. Many brew their own lubes, generally Lanolin based.

Attention to detail and ruthless culling are the primary difference.

Jef Fowler told me once, if you don't see the advantage of mine, they probably would not make a difference for you.

Nice sales pitch....

 

[IdahoSharpshooter]

simple truth...

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Dusty

Are all those from the same 100 ct box?

Yes

 

[antelopedundee]

I'm not a bulletmaker, but if you do everything yourself then there's a limit to what you can produce. First you need the dies. Then you need a reliable supplier of match grade jackets. Next is a supplier of lead wire of appropriate diameter for your cores. Then you cut your cores and since they are oversize you need to squirt them to get rid of excess lead and end up with uniform weight. At some point you have to lube them and remove the lube. Don't know if the identity of the lube is still a closely guarded secret. Then you have to put the cores into the jackets and seat them. The last step is to point them up and IIRC it's this step where the "it has to feel right" comes in. To save labor and time I believe a lot of makers buy the cores ready to use. Since all of the bullets are pointed on one die then it should result in excellent uniformity.

 

[geo.ulrich]

I'm not a bulletmaker, but if you do everything yourself then there's a limit to what you can produce. First you need the dies. Then you need a reliable supplier of match grade jackets. Next is a supplier of lead wire of appropriate diameter for your cores. Then you cut your cores and since they are oversize you need to squirt them to get rid of excess lead and end up with uniform weight. At some point you have to lube them and remove the lube. Don't know if the identity of the lube is still a closely guarded secret. Then you have to put the cores into the jackets and seat them. The last step is to point them up and IIRC it's this step where the "it has to feel right" comes in. To save labor and time I believe a lot of makers buy the cores ready to use. Since all of the bullets are pointed on one die then it should result in excellent uniformity.

I don't think " magic lube " is much of a secret