What makes custom bullets better.

[One Shot One Thrill]

Let's see how bad I can get beat up on this one. Dish it out I got thick skin.
What are custim bullets made from?
Custom Jackets?
Custom Core?
Custom lube?
ECT.
I don't think so. Jackets, Cores, lube are bought from a supplier.
The die is custom is that what does it?
I think it's the attention to detail in every facet of their operation. Sure they have to have good components but it's how they Handel them that matters most I think.

 

[lpreddick]

Custom bullet makers have severe OCD...The good kind. Most start making bullets for their own use and most being benchrest shooters, have that strain of OCD also...another good kind. I don't shoot benchrest but i demand perfection from my components. I measure and weigh bullets and custom bullets vary the least...weight and base to ogive, especially. I have measured factory bullets and find base to ogive variation in excess of .015. One box of 100, 87 gr and NONE weighed 87 gr. Attention to detail that a factory machine does not have. You can find custom bullets for sale on Market Place and are usually less expensive than factory.

 

[SGK]

Interesting topic. I have the flip question - what makes factory bullets so inconsistent? I'm not a competition shooter but I was intrigued to measure a bunch (455) of Hornady ELD-M .22 52gr bullets yesterday. BBTO. All from the same batch. It was as if they came out of different machines. There were several, rather discrete, bunches. I grouped them into +/- 0.5 thou buckets. I'm wondering what it is is the manufacturing process that spits out these discrete bunches rather than a more continuous distribution - and why a manufacturer claiming the product is 'match' quality doesn't do this sorting as part of the manufacturing process to up their ratings (so to speak).


o 0.395” +/- 0.5 thou 4

o 0.397” +/- 0.5 thou 12

o 0.400” +/- 0.5 thou 47

o 0.404” +/- 0.5 thou 28

o 0.406” +/- 0.5 thou 261

o 0.410” +/- 0.5 thou 103

 

[boltfluter]

In production, same bullet coming off of 5 different machines, which in reality is 5 different dies. Spoken with Sierra years ago about this. Fell on deaf ears. Not sure about today's world. Not picking on Sierra as they make a quality product. This conversation was probably 20 yrs ago.

Paul

 

[Greyfox]

Consistency

Rick

 

[ShootDots]

Being a custom bullet maker is no guarantee the bullets will shoot! About 6 years ago, I bought 1000 180gr 7mm JLK VLD bullets. I talked two of my friends into them too. None of us could get them to shoot>>>I mean they were horrible. All of us checked the bullets. Base-to-ogive were +/- 0.005 >> base to tips were within 5 thousandths and the weight was very, very close! We could not figure why none of us could get them to shoot. Now JLK makes excellent bullets and I have used them fairly extensively. To this day we can not find the reason why.. My 1 friend sold them to a neighbor who could not get them to shoot either.. WHY?? JLK's 6mm 105 VLD and the 30 cal. 210 LRBT are two of the most accurate bullets I have ever shot. The 105 VLD runs neck and neck with Berger's 108LRBT!
I have never shot the Vapor Trails or Matrix or "others" >>> I am sure they shoot very well.

 

[dcali]

I think a lot of it is that quality control is built into the process. Every component of every bullet made must be inspected simply because the bullet maker is assembling bullets one at a time by hand. If one feels off going into the press, he knows it. It’s also a much more gentle process than the automated machines and generally more care is taken to keep the bullets in good shape.

That said, the majors are capable of making some pretty good bullets these days, and for most shooters they’re perfectly adequate.

 

[boltfluter]

Ben,

Just thinking out loud here. Just wondering if the CG on this particular bullet is just nor correct. Similar to the Berger 115 VLD that seems to give so many grief. Purely speculation on my part. Maybe one of the bullet makers can shed some light on the topic.

Paul

 

[rardoin]

Control of core seating; using the correct punch for each jacket to compensate for minute jacket variation.

 

[dcali]

Ben,

Just thinking out loud here. Just wondering if the CG on this particular bullet is just nor correct. Similar to the Berger 115 VLD that seems to give so many grief. Purely speculation on my part. Maybe one of the bullet makers can shed some light on the topic.

Paul

It would be tough for the CG to be off if the weight is right. I’d bet there was a problem with the core seating, but who knows.

 

[Webster]

Let's see how bad I can get beat up on this one. Dish it out I got thick skin.
What are custim bullets made from?
Custom Jackets?
Custom Core?
Custom lube?
ECT.
I don't think so. Jackets, Cores, lube are bought from a supplier.
The die is custom is that what does it?
I think it's the attention to detail in every facet of their operation. Sure they have to have good components but it's how they Handel them that matters most I think.

It would be interesting to see the wt. variation for the lead slugs. More lead the pointing die makes a longer base to ogive? Is there a relationship lead weight to base to ogive distance?

I read somewhere that the reason short range bench rest bullets are flat base is because it's easier to constently get the same shape and dimensions. Dies are probably made to much better tolerances than they were 20 years ago.

 

[Bill K]

Consistency

Rick

More often than not, it is that the custom makers can and do take the time to make each bullet as consistent as they can. Sort of like one bullet at a time.
Where as the major makers are running them out thousands a minute. While they are pretty darn good at making bullets, they just can not be as closely matched as the custom one's are.

 

[ShootDots]

Ben,

Just thinking out loud here. Just wondering if the CG on this particular bullet is just nor correct. Similar to the Berger 115 VLD that seems to give so many grief. Purely speculation on my part. Maybe one of the bullet makers can shed some light on the topic.

Paul

Hello Paul! The dimensional stability of the bullets was incredible! The only thing we could think of is that the shape of the bullet was not conducive to a 7mm or some such deal. Totally unknown..

 

[KevinThomas]

In production, same bullet coming off of 5 different machines, which in reality is 5 different dies. Spoken with Sierra years ago about this. Fell on deaf ears. Not sure about today's world. Not picking on Sierra as they make a quality product. This conversation was probably 20 yrs ago.

Paul

I have no idea who told you this, but they were dead wrong, or you completely misunderstood them. They’ve only mixed bullets from different machines in one circumstance, and that was on the direct insistance of the customer; Lake City Army Ammunition Plant. Aside from that (and LCAAP has even discontinued this practice, quite some time ago), the bullets in any given box came off one machine, and one machine only. Changing a form die results in the lot being removed ended, and a new lot begun, so there should never be bullets made from different form dies inn the same box, either.

Sorry, but this old canard has been floating around since some benchrest shooter wrote about it in a book, and it’s been treated as gospel ever since. I can almost assure you that he never once set foot in the plant, and simply wrote down what he assumed they did. Drive a stake through this one’s heart and be done with it!

 

[Jefferson]

I have no idea who told you this, but they were dead wrong, or you completely misunderstood them. They’ve only mixed bullets from different machines in one circumstance, and that was on the direct insistance of the customer; Lake City Army Ammunition Plant. Aside from that (and LCAAP has even discontinued this practice, quite some time ago), the bullets in any given box came off one machine, and one machine only. Changing a form die results in the lot being removed ended, and a new lot begun, so there should never be bullets made from different form dies inn the same box, either.

Sorry, but this old canard has been floating around since some benchrest shooter wrote about it in a book, and it’s been treated as gospel ever since. I can almost assure you that he never once set foot in the plant, and simply wrote down what he assumed they did. Drive a stake through this one’s heart and be done with it!

Please name the book author, by not doing so U R doing the same thing, wrecking the reputation of the other author. Jeff

 

[Jimmy James]

Jackets are bought from a vendor but there are jackets and then there are jackets. The custom bullets I shoot are hand swagged ( I think that is the right term). I have to measure base to ogive on Sierra bullets. I dont on the custom bullets I shoot.

 

[KevinThomas]

Please name the book author, by not doing so U R doing the same thing, wrecking the reputation of the other author. Jeff

Glen Newick

 

[Jefferson]

thanks I was hoping to cure that thought as the 2 br guys who wrote books should not suffer unduly, thanks for adding to the conversation, and I would agree

 

[DaveTooley]

I'm familiar with Hornady and Sierra. Neither have multiple presses making the same bullet. Except maybe the 30 cal. 168 or the 175 HPBT because of quantity for the military. Kevin can address that but either way it was for one specific customer with specific instructions. Not for the retail market.
It's counter productive to run more than one press for the quantity of bullets needed for the retail market as well as ammo manufactures. Why? It takes a lot of man hours to set up a press up for a given bullet. Once a press is set up it can continue to run for days with minor adjustments making the same bullet.

For all you doubters if you're traveling past either company schedule a tour and see for yourself and ask questions instead of spreading misinformation.

Rant over

 

[IdahoSharpshooter]

1. J4 jackets are held to low three digit tolerances.
2. Most custom makers form their own cores from rolls of wire.
3. " " make their bullets in batches of 1000, not 100,000. Think handmade, one at a time.
4. Many brew their own lubes, generally Lanolin based.

Attention to detail and ruthless culling are the primary difference.

Jef Fowler told me once, if you don't see the advantage of mine, they probably would not make a difference for you.