What is "Backfire" on an AR format?

[civil82]

Any more than 1 shot per trigger pull will get you into trouble if you are shooting at a range and a off duty or plain clothes cop is around and asks you to show him your class 3 for said weapon, that is considered an automatic weapon. Even though he "built" it as a semi auto no matter how the trigger is I would not want to be in those shoes if I was stopped at the range for firing more than 1 shot per trigger pull.
Its happened before with "bump" fires due to bad triggers or trigger group and a cop happened to be there shooting off duty & arrested said shooter.

It's not firing more than once per pull. A "bump" fire is the result of the forward recoil causing the trigger finger to immediately fire a second round. What's the follow up to your story of an arrest? What charges stuck?
Back to the OP, I've had a two stage bump fire on an across-the-course rifle. The second stage was too light. Once corrected, no issues followed. Hope it all works out for you and you learn to enjoy the dark side.

 

[Minesweeper3433]

There seems to be a lot of resentment and anger in this post so far. A couple of things I wanted to address so far is that I agree with the statement that anyone that can screw up a Giessle trigger has no business inside a gun. Second if a cop ever tried to arrest me for a gun doubling he would be facing one heck of a nice lawsuit for wrongful arrest. He has no jurisdiction were I am to ask for my stamp unless local laws list as such. ATF can ask when they want but they never have, they are the taxing body and can confirm that you have paid said tax. In fact the only people that ask about my stamps are range officers being cautious which I can gladly respect and oblige. But I would be striking it rich if I got arrested for a gun doubling on the range due to a mechanical default. I have had a cop harass me at a range over my cans and I asked him to please call his shift supper before he said anything else to me or I would have to call a lawyer. He decide to confer with his supper and that was the immediate end to the conversation.

I will admit when I first shot an M1A that I bought used I was worried about a few doubles I had but after reading about "milking the trigger" on the M1A forums I changed how I shot and it worked, for me. Have not yet had an AR trigger double up on me yet except when tuning a new trigger in, on the workbench unloaded.

 

[johnu]

If he claims to have installed a Geissele trigger, then he screwed up the install beyond all belief.

Not necessarily. Easy to bump fire if you are shooting off a rest while load testing. Just need to remember to have the stock solidly against your shoulder and squeeze the trigger completely through its travel.

John

 

[johnu]

On the shooter side it's usually about noise. ARs are Loud! Especially for the ppl shooting at the bench on either side of you. I add a pair of ear plugs to go along with my e-muffs when someone unpacks one.

Agreed, at least when equipped with brakes or compensators (not flash hiders) but that goes for any rifle with a brake. The SBR's are pretty barky too but not as bad as the 10" Thompson Center in .223 I once had. The muzzle flash was tremendous!

John

 

[akajun]

He's got that geisslle adjusted improperly . Holding back the trigger and letting the trigger move back forward to release from the disconnector is how we shoot rapid fire stages in highpower . The geisslle trigger is fairly easy to install, but does require a set of trigger weights or scale to install properly. The instructions included with the trigger are very good but they must be followed. Also if you have the second stage weight set to light , what your describing can happen. I set my geisslles to have a 3.5 lb first stage and. 1lb second stage, I've never had a double .
The only other advice I can give is to install a rra two stage trigger . They are non adjustable and therefore can not be adjusted improperly.

 

[lpreddick]

not welcomb at the range: one range near me allows full auto fire and a member just had to rip some off...several hundred rounds later he left...thank you. next week he's back and as he jams in the first mag...FULL AUTO INTO THE SKY!( his finger hit the trigger). he was VERY upset and was asked to leave which he did gladly. we do have a range officer at all times but this doesn't prevent shooters from being careless.

 

[CaptainMal]

Appreciate the interest and explanations of what happened. Understand it now and that was the purpose of my original topic.

Also understand that my almost 7 decades of trigger techniques are not compatible with most or many AR format triggers. I'm not going to change my follow-through habits with a trigger just for one rifle. Also not going to hold any rifle shot from a bench tightly. Not going to be further involved in that type of rifle.

One additional thing about why I always dislike them at the range. Obviously, since I was going to own one and did allow the guy to build one for me, I would have owned one. The negative would always have been what I think of every time I see one. I think of human killing.

Sporting arms remind me of targets, hunting and sport. There is also a certain grace and beauty to their lines and quality of construction. AR and other military guns remind me of the horrors of war, just like Jap cars remind me of Pearl Harbor.

 

[waterfwlr]

Captainmal, I'm sure you are just a older gentleman that is set in your ways, but a lot things you have said about AR's, sounds just like the anti's. Not good.

 

[pacificman]

Appreciate the interest and explanations of what happened. Understand it now and that was the purpose of my original topic.

Also understand that my almost 7 decades of trigger techniques are not compatible with most or many AR format triggers. I'm not going to change my follow-through habits with a trigger just for one rifle. Also not going to hold any rifle shot from a bench tightly. Not going to be further involved in that type of rifle.

One additional thing about why I always dislike them at the range. Obviously, since I was going to own one and did allow the guy to build one for me, I would have owned one. The negative would always have been what I think of every time I see one. I think of human killing.

Sporting arms remind me of targets, hunting and sport. There is also a certain grace and beauty to their lines and quality of construction. AR and other military guns remind me of the horrors of war, just like Jap cars remind me of Pearl Harbor.

As a fellow shooter I respect your point of view. To me I just look at any rifle as a tool and sometimes no matter what tool is being used there will be a "tool" behind it! Some of these "tools" should not be allowed to own a rifle. When any of us go hunting we have a rule to remind each other of where our rifles are pointed at all times and no one gets butt hurt about it or they can go home. Most semi-autos just 10 years or so ago were very inaccurate and I never even thought about owning but many of the new versions that are out today are amazingly accurate and if a good deal comes along I just might have to own one. I am not going to let the actions of shooters who are unsafe persuade my decision to own one of these AR style rifles. When I was in the service we started out with the M-14...awesome tool. About a year later we were issued the M-16 which was unreliable and prone to jamming and I hated. The tools (rifles) have changed but there will always seem to be some one unsafe behind any rifle used ...don't let the actions of others dissuade you from owning a semi-auto. OK...I'll get off my soap box...just a thought here. : Semper Fi

 

[people]

Ranges are noisy places get some good hearing protection and use it. I use plugs and muffs since most ranges do not allow suppressors in matches.

Brass flies it is nature of the beast. I will let you in on a brass catcher secret. Most are terrible pieces of kit. Their draw backs range from now staying in place to catch the brass, not actually catching brass easily, and the worst ones cause it to bounce back into the action. While some will tell you X is the best but it might not work for you at all.

Here in ND and the other ranges I have gone to is idiots. Most of them are “hunters”. We all know the type, they never hold their firearm except to load it into the truck to go shooting or hunting which is maybe 5 times a year. They have poor firearm handling skills. Bluntly put their Fathers and Grand Fathers should be ashamed of the job they did. The real problem shooters I have seen are those guys with shotguns. They are the ones who need to shoot big holes in everything. I can see the need to pattern your pattern but finding a shot of railroad tie and a pile of shotgun hulls about five feet away kind of point to who did it.

Since I bought an AW I have actually been shooting BR matches. While being a great group of guys they are the most flagging group I have ever seen. Flagging is sweeping someone with the muzzle of your firearm. If you can see a flash through a scope that means it was pointed at you.

You have to remember the anti’s want all of our firearms. They want small chunks that we as a group will not go to battle over. I can tell you this CaptianMal if you think your BR rifle is safe you are sorely mistaken. Granted you will hopefully die(not that I want you dead Keep reading) before the anti’s get what they want. I sure hope a child born today great, great, great grand children will not experience the outright ban. The anit-gun people see your scoped rifle as a sniper’s rifle. They want it also.

Your last paragraph I will leave you with this. When I was in many scoped rifles were fielded by Marines who never went to school to drive one. I got mine because the unit I was Faped to I was the best shot so I got it. I will NOT go into specifics but I will tell you this and your horrors of war. That M40 killed far more than the no kills my a2 ever got. That is why the anti’s want your sniper rifle. Oh my bad BR rifle.

We have to stick together on this or we all lose. See my sig.

 

[CaptainMal]

Understand the thoughts and providing "ammo" for the anti-gunners. Not happy I answered questions on that topic because of that issue. But, in my experience, it IS an issue.

I use electronic hearing protection. They work but rapid fire on a range is a distraction. Lately there are more and more distractions showing up.

Ironically, my new copy of Rifle Shooter arrived today. On page 12 is an article by James Tarr titled, "Tac-Con Trigger". He used one in an AR format rifle. He says the ATF approved this trigger and it's selector switch. It is designed to do "bump fire". Using it Mr. Tarr reports he was able to ..."run my AR at 500 to 600 rounds per minute".

I leave the judgment to you dear reader.

 

[DogPatch06]

Sometimes reading posts in this forum is like listening to the newspaper executives explain the demise of the newspaper industry to each other as the internet takes over. Many of you earned your marksmanship knowledge through mutual respect, relationship building, sacrifice, and time. Given youtube, someone your grand kid's age can give 10,000 people an overview of how to shoot ar-15 properly... A college kid can memorize videos, buy a rifle, then show up and ego trip themselves into your complaints.
To them it's just another day; but to you it's an indication of several other things. Yes those people can be very unsafe. If you don't like it, find another range because you getting old. Bad AR behavior is not going to change anytime soon. Also, try not to think of human killing when you see an AR. Read Taking Back the Half Kilometer by Major Thomas P. Ehrhart, and think of your favorite Garand and the AK instead.

 

[jimbo88mm]

I realize this thread has pretty much run it's coarse and OP has made up his mind.. I would just like to add a couple things..


1) I picked up a M1 Garand several years ago from CMP. It would occasionally shoot 2 or 3 at a time. I replaced all the springs and started looking for a new hammer.. despite the trigger assembly passing the function check. The problem turned out to be shooting the Garand the same way I shot my bolts... front rest/bag and rear bag from the bench. I stopped using the rear bag and it hasn't "bump fired" since.

2) I concur with the others who stated it sounds like the trigger was not installed correctly. If by chance you decide to give it another go I would recommend going with a quality standard trigger. That would give you a more forgiving trigger with a pull weight around 5lbs. I have a standard trigger in my bull barreled AR and can hold nickle sized 10 shot groups at 100 yards all day with the right load. Side note.. I do plan to add a geissele non-adjustable trigger sometime in the future.. but no rush since it shoots so well as it is.

3) The lack of courtesy you are describing at your range is disappointing to hear. One of the ranges I go to has screens between each bench and a one shot per second rule (also no fmj is allowed). Other rules include open bolts during cease fires. Also there is a yellow line on the floor.. no one is allowed to cross it during the cease fire. It's amazing how many people have problems following simple rules. Being muzzled by an off-duty police officer is unacceptable! Sometimes we (as in gun owners) are our own worst enemies

 

[CaptainMal]

That "ching" and clip in the air is a bummer when you need more cover shots.

Thought I would give in and try one if it was accurate enough for 200 yard prairie dog shooting. 4-5 lb triggers will not make that reasonable. Seems much less trigger weight and you are flirting with the bump fire issue. Never knew the AR format had that issue. I'm sticking with my bolt rifles.

Agree the problem at ranges will not get better unless you go to a range like Manatee with range officers and fiberglass/screen blocks between the benches. I go to other ranges that are closer for shorter-range shooting. That's where the trouble is. Should just stay in the backyard.

 

[243Mendoza]

On the shooter side it's usually about noise. ARs are Loud! Especially for the ppl shooting at the bench on either side of you. I add a pair of ear plugs to go along with my e-muffs when someone unpacks one.

A 6PPC bench gun is much louder than an AR.

 

[CaptainMal]

No.

6 PPC's are mostly shot with 20" bbls. They are one precise shot at a time under controlled, target conditions. Aren't many of them either and when seen, it's serious practice at quality ranges or in competition. After firing, most of those shooters even remove the bolts for safety.

Noise is the comment though. 223's, 308's and all the other AR cartridge variations have the potential to be way louder, especially from shorter barrels and firing tens to hundreds of rounds rapidly.

You just wrote one of the dumbest things I have read.

 

[243Mendoza]

No.

6 PPC's are mostly shot with 20" bbls. They are one precise shot at a time under controlled, target conditions. Aren't many of them either and when seen, it's serious practice at quality ranges or in competition. After firing, most of those shooters even remove the bolts for safety.

Noise is the comment though. 223's, 308's and all the other AR cartridge variations have the potential to be way louder, especially from shorter barrels and firing tens to hundreds of rounds rapidly.

I have been next to 6PPC and AR and the 6PPC is louder because of it higher pressure. We are not talking of accuracy

You just wrote one of the dumbest things I have read.

Thank you for you civility Looks like I touched a nerve (x-ring with an AR)

 

[Pres100]

Unbelievable how this thread goes from a complete lack of knowledge and understanding to generalization and conclusion. Throw in misplaced blame and sprinkle in insulting comments.

 

[GrocMax]

Unbelievable how this thread goes from a complete lack of knowledge and understanding to generalization and conclusion. Throw in misplaced blame and sprinkle in insulting comments.

Welcome to the Internet ala message boards

 

[GSRswapandslow]

No.

6 PPC's are mostly shot with 20" bbls. They are one precise shot at a time under controlled, target conditions. Aren't many of them either and when seen, it's serious practice at quality ranges or in competition. After firing, most of those shooters even remove the bolts for safety.

Noise is the comment though. 223's, 308's and all the other AR cartridge variations have the potential to be way louder, especially from shorter barrels and firing tens to hundreds of rounds rapidly.

You just wrote one of the dumbest things I have read.

are you "scared" of the EBR's at your range? (EBR = evil black rifle) I shoot at a private range that was built by several hall-of-fame shooters....and, at first, they didn't care for my AR's, SBR's, and suppressors. Just as much as I didn't care for their wood/laminate stock single shot bolt rifles. But as we became friends...more of those guys asked to shoot my guns, and I theres. Now I have several laminate/wood/single shot rifles...and some of them even have their own AR's. None have made the jump to buying a suppressor or going to an SBR...but, I think with time they might.

Point is....you're obviously against the guns for ignorant reasons. I don't care if you say you were going to "own" one...it's obvious you were cynical about it the entire time. Then jaded by your ineptitude to shoot an ar properly...so you'd rather just deem all of the guns, and their owners, to be below you.

Maybe you should build your own private range so you never have to shoot next to another person or see anyone else.....or, even better, why not just sell all your guns and give up guns for good. This community is under enough fire from idiots....you're extra bit of ignorance is neither wanted nor needed.