What is a good group?

[VLNBYR]

Justin...NOBODY is or can shoot consistent 11mm out to out groups for 10 shots, even in a tunnel, one-piece rest, etc. If you could center such groups that would translate into perfect 2500 ARA targets so just not the case. Outside in conditions of any kind, equipment of any kind, a 10 shot 11mm out to out group is impressive.

 

[justinp61]

I agree, consistent 11mm 5 shot groups at 50 will be impressive. We all have shot "hero" groups but I don't put a ton of stock in them. Show me five or six in a row on the same target it's impressive.

In the link I provided the best average for six groups is 0.128" C to C, about 0.352" or 9mm outside. The best single group is .009" C to C, about 0.233 or 6mm outside. The same guy shot these on the same target, prone off a bipod with a rear bag, all on video. Amazing rifle with great ammo and very good shooter.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

I shot my first ever match last summer, 100 yard 22 rimfire. I used a borrowed H&R single shot with a 36x Weaver. The ammo, Federal match that was supposed to shoot "good". I shot a 969 for 2nd place with 17 centers . The targets said Official 100 yard target, the CENTER measured 0.75 inch. I didn't have any flags, most did. So I shot by feel the wind on my neck. It was frustrating making a wind call and break the shot that way. Especially when a couple of my targets had sub 1/2 inch 5 shot groups, and I felt the gun was capable of staying on(in the) CENTER, but either me or the ammo wasn't. After I finished, my 2nd place didn't bother me as much as the shots I watched fly off center.

 

[1813benny]

Justin...NOBODY is or can shoot consistent 11mm out to out groups for 10 shots, even in a tunnel, one-piece rest, etc. If you could center such groups that would translate into perfect 2500 ARA targets so just not the case. Outside in conditions of any kind, equipment of any kind, a 10 shot 11mm out to out group is impressive.

I answered the question posted by the OP as to what is a good group for both 50m and 100m and also stated 10 shots. This is the "benchmark" that I used for my rifle at the test center.

VLNBYR stated in one of his posts that his "benchmark" 5 shot group was on single hole that a .22 cartridge would fit in but not slip past the rim. Again, even more impressive than the 11m group I offered up - regardless if 5 or 10 shots. No mention of consistency that this is achieved is mentioned.

Now, the standard ISU 50m rifle target has a 10 ring diameter of 10.4mm. That translates to .409". During prone and F-SBR matches, it is not uncommon to have groups fired that are completely inside the 10 ring - using both metallic and optics. (As a reminder, this is from the shoulder with a sling (not a rest) in outdoor conditions by master class competitors.) While scoring at the 2020 ASSA National F-SBR Championships, I can honestly state that I saw no less than 4 or 5 five (5) shot groups from each of the leaders every day that were inside the 10.4mm ten ring on the ISU 50m target. Yes, this standard can be regularly met in outdoor conditions.

Returning to this string, at a late point the word "consistent" is thrown into the mix. Consistent being how many? One said "show me five or six in a row on one target.....". Not possible for ISU as the max number of five shot bulls on a target is four (4). But the intent is understood to be a "regular" occurrence and not the miracle wallet group.

If you revise the question to "what is a good CONSISTENT size 5 shot group", that provide additional clarity to the discussion. For "consistent" good group size for 5 shots, I still stand by the 11mm at 50 yards. As 5 shot groups are not used in smallbore prone at 100 yards, I will use 23mm (.905").

 

[justinp61]

Yes, the OP asked, "what is a good group"? He also mentioned he had been ammo testing, maybe I'm different but I don't base my ammo testing on one ringer group. I'll shoot ten or more groups with each particular ammo and make my choice. Heck, I guess I've been wasting a bunch of ammo.

I shoot 50 yard fun matches, mostly benchrest, sporters or vintage target rifles both aperture sights and scopes. The scoped matches are shot on a A-17 50' small bore target, five targets, ten bulls each, one shot each bull. The aperture sight matches are shot on a B-40 10M air pistol target, four bulls each target, three targets, five shots each bull.

 

[1813benny]

Yes, the OP asked, "what is a good group"? He also mentioned he had been ammo testing, maybe I'm different but I don't base my ammo testing on one ringer group. I'll shoot ten or more groups with each particular ammo and make my choice. Heck, I guess I've been wasting a bunch of ammo.

I shoot 50 yard fun matches, mostly benchrest, sporters or vintage target rifles both aperture sights and scopes. The scoped matches are shot on a A-17 50' small bore target, five targets, ten bulls each, one shot each bull. The aperture sight matches are shot on a B-40 10M air pistol target, four bulls each target, three targets, five shots each bull.

Noted.

When I tested ammo prior to using one of the centers, I 20 lots of Eley Match with no fewer than five 5-shot groups at 50 m before moving to 100y.

With a test center less than 3 hours away, this time I went that route and was very satisfied with ammo verified with more than “one ringer group” - tested both in the tunnel and outside at 50 and 100 m. Burned up over 300 rounds of Midas+.

In summary, those who make the effort to test have their benchmarks and a round count to establish their own level of confidence for their application.

It’s always interesting to see what various disciplines’ needs are in comparison.