What happened to Norma Powders?

[KMart]

Doesnt that mean that Nobel and Norma have nothing to do with each other then? Two different companies. Norma is owned by RUAG the German defense contractor. Unless Nobel uses the Norma factory that is like 100 something years old but my guess is no since the article is about the Nobel factory. Again cant get to the article so not sure what is says.

I wish I could help you. Keeping up with who is doing what in the EU is as confusing as dropping your chewing gum in a hen house.

 

[Sebrock]

I wish I could help you. Keeping up with who is doing what in the EU is as confusing as dropping your chewing gum in a hen house.

Much appreciated - I agree. Seems like Vhitavouri and Lapua are more like a US based conglomerate focusing on shooting. The others are huge defense contractors so unless someone buys the divisions, my guess is that it will be hard powder to get.

 

[Laurie]

Eurenco is a French centred conglomerate that makes 'energetics', ie explosives and propellants for both military and other manufacturing outfits as well as a wide range of commercial explosives. You can see its production facilities here:

https://eurenco.com/en/who-we-are/

It seems propellants ('poudres') are only made now in Karlskoga, Sweden retaining the Bofors company name for its explosives / propellant manufacturing there, and by P B Clermont in Belgium. The latter is the onetime national explosives / propellants manufacturer for the Belgian state (Poudrerie Belge Clermont) going back to black powder days. It only makes 'spherical' powders primarily for smaller calibre ammunition (up to 20mm) having bought technology knowhow and manufacturing rights from the US Olin Corporation in the early 1950s. Handloaders know it as the maker of Ramshot grade powders, but its products are sold to ammunition manufacturers worldwide.

The artillery manufacturing bit of Bofors is now part of the UK based British Aerospace group (BAe). BAe also owns the former UK state Royal Ordnance ammunition manufacturing plants, one of which, Radway Green, makes smallarms stuff, but has no propellant manufacturing capability and buys its powders in from others. (There is none in the UK, nor has there been for 30 + years.) It only sells ammunition to governments these days and terminated its contract with the UK NRA some years ago for supplying 7.62 cartridges.

Norma is part of the Swiss based RUAG group whose Ammotec division produces Rottweil, RWS, GECO, Norma brand products in various locations across Europe. RUAG is also the joint owner of Nitrochemie Wimmins AG, a Swiss based energetics manufacturer with the big German Rheinmetall manufacturing conglomerate . Nitrochemie makes three or four Alliant brand powders (Reloder 17 is probably the best known), but mostly sticks to European orders from RUAG Ammotec and others as well as selling powders to European handloaders under the Reload Swiss brand name, a large range of very competent propellants.

Nammo is a Norwegian centred Aerospace and defence group and among other companies / brands owns Lapua, Vihtavuori, SK, and Berger Bullets.

The French based Thales group owns ADI, the former Australian Defence Industries, manufacturing weapons, ammunition, and propellants / explosives 'down under'. Thales / ADI makes all Hodgdon extruded powders (and one or two branded as IMR such as 8208XBR) in its Mulwala factory in New South Wales.

 

[Sebrock]

Eurenco is a French centred conglomerate that makes 'energetics', ie explosives and propellants for both military and other manufacturing outfits as well as a wide range of commercial explosives. You can see its production facilities here:

https://eurenco.com/en/who-we-are/

It seems propellants ('poudres') are only made now in Karlskoga, Sweden retaining the Bofors company name for its explosives / propellant manufacturing there, and by P B Clermont in Belgium. The latter is the onetime national explosives / propellants manufacturer for the Belgian state (Poudrerie Belge Clermont) going back to black powder days. It only makes 'spherical' powders primarily for smaller calibre ammunition (up to 20mm) having bought technology knowhow and manufacturing rights from the US Olin Corporation in the early 1950s. Handloaders know it as the maker of Ramshot grade powders, but its products are sold to ammunition manufacturers worldwide.

The artillery manufacturing bit of Bofors is now part of the UK based British Aerospace group (BAe). BAe also owns the former UK state Royal Ordnance ammunition manufacturing plants, one of which, Radway Green, makes smallarms stuff, but has no propellant manufacturing capability and buys its powders in from others. (There is none in the UK, nor has there been for 30 + years.) It only sells ammunition to governments these days and terminated its contract with the UK NRA some years ago for supplying 7.62 cartridges.

Norma is part of the Swiss based based RUAG group whose Ammotec division produces Rottweil, RWS, GECO, Norma brand products in various locations across Europe. RUAG is also the joint owner of Nitrochemie Wimmins AG, a Swiss based energetics manufacturer with the big German Rheinmetall manufacturing conglomerate . Nitrochemie makes three or four Alliant brand powders (Reloder 17 is probably the best known), but mostly sticks to European orders from RUAG Ammotec and others as well as selling powders to European handloaders under the Reload Swiss brand name, a large range of very competent propellants.

Nammo is a Norwegian centred Aerospace and defence group and among other companies / brands owns Lapua, Vihtavuori, SK, and Berger Bullets.

As always - fantastic info. I knew Nammo owned Lapua but didn’t realize they were also a defense conglomerate. It does seem that Nammo is much more supportive of the sport and their shooting products. RUAG and Eurenco probably not so much? Do you think we will ever see a wide availability of both Norma and Vectan powders?

 

[Laurie]

Norma powders have reappeared in the UK after a gap of maybe 20 years, RUAG Ammotec UK restarting after the EU 'Reach' regulations banned most Hodgdon and IMR powders a couple of years back. (We have had Norma ammunition, brass and components continuously for a long time.)

The old Nobel-Sport Vectan powders have never been widely available in the UK and as best I can tell were mainly confined to French outlets. I'm not sure if they're available at all here these days.

The problem any company in this field faces in starting imports / growing its business is building customer awareness and brand acceptance. Vihtavuori has faced this problem in the US and seems to be making inroads only after setting up the Capstone Precision import / marketing / distribution outfit under Nammo ownership - no doubt helped by the shortages of other makes! In the UK we are well served, principally by Vihtavuori which has always been readily available and competitively priced. Many people here switched to Viht from Hodgdon even before the Reach ban because Hodgdon supply became so unreliable. The other big players are newish entrant Reload Swiss and Alliant, although the latter may suffer because of the US shortages and shipping problems / costs depending on how much Alliant ATK is willing to supply to us at a time when it can sell every tin it gets at home.

Norma is reputedly suffering here from an unwillingness to try it with Viht and RS taking up most of the slack created by the new rules that wiped out so many Hodgdon and IMR products. Hearsay reports that local gunshops aren't reordering , in which case we might lose Norma powders again. I certainly hope not - they're excellent powders and attractively priced here.

 

[Sebrock]

Norma powders have reappeared in the UK after a gap of maybe 20 years, RUAG Ammotec UK restarting after the EU 'Reach' regulations banned most Hodgdon and IMR powders a couple of years back. (We have had Norma ammunition, brass and components continuously for a long time.)

The old Nobel-Sport Vectan powders have never been widely available in the UK and as best I can tell were mainly confined to French outlets. I'm not sure if they're available at all here these days.

The problem any company in this field faces in starting imports / growing its business is building customer awareness and brand acceptance. Vihtavuori has faced this problem in the US and seems to be making inroads only after setting up the Capstone Precision import / marketing / distribution outfit under Nammo ownership - no doubt helped by the shortages of other makes! In the UK we are well served, principally by Vihtavuori which has always been readily available and competitively priced. Many people here switched to Viht from Hodgdon even before the Reach ban because Hodgdon supply became so unreliable. The other big players are newish entrant Reload Swiss and Alliant, although the latter may suffer because of the US shortages and shipping problems / costs depending on how much Alliant ATK is willing to supply to us at a time when it can sell every tin it gets at home.

Norma is reputedly suffering here from an unwillingness to try it with Viht and RS taking up most of the slack created by the new rules that wiped out so many Hodgdon and IMR products. Hearsay reports that local gunshops aren't reordering , in which case we might lose Norma powders again. I certainly hope not - they're excellent powders and attractively priced here.

This forum never ceases to amaze me. Thank you so much for the insight!!!

 

[PA Jeep]

Just noticed the inside cover of a Guns and Ammo suppliment mag features Norma Powder and Bullets. US has to be one of the largest global markets for any reloading mfg. I'm guessing they will be back in some form.

 

[alf]

Shameless plug.....

FS Norma 201 Powder​

 

[Sebrock]

Shameless plug.....

FS Norma 201 Powder​

Hahahahaha

 

[cb186]

I am loving URP and 204 for my 6.5x47 but slowly running out of the supply I originally ordered from Powder Valley. I recently asked them when they were getting more in (or if they were getting more in at some point) and they say they aren't expecting any future shipments at all. I went on the trusty inter-webs and found other small dealers and inquired there, and they too no longer carry it. I emailed Western/Ramshot and got no response back. Anyone have any insight? Anything similar anyone can recommend that isn't unbotanium like H4350. I have N555 which seems to model similarly in GRT - hopefully this will be available again some time in the foreseeable future - before I run out. Staball 6.5 which I also have models to 95% case capacity where I start reaching theoretical pressure, as well as low 2700s, but will try that too.

What I've heard is that 204 is more refined(?) RE16, and 203B is RE15. I have 1lb of 204 and an open 8lb of 203B.

Try IMR4451 as an alternative to 4350/16/204

 

[Laurie]

What I've heard is that 204 is more refined(?) RE16

No, they are quite different powders and loads data should never be interchanged. Moreover, N204 has been around for a long time and has the same pros and cons as other older Norma / Alliant Swedish manufactured powders from the onetime Bofors plant. IME, 204 is a very good replacement for H4350, except that it won't be nearly as temperature stable. Re16 is a new technology powder, recently introduced, and is claimed to be one of the most temperature stable grades going. I'd also say it is a 'hotter' propellant than 204 in terms of MVs for any given charge.

http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=3657

http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=3683

Re15 and Norma 203-B are so far as the average user goes the same thing and interchangeable. Alliant ATK says that they demand higher specs for the powder Eurenco Bofors sells them for packaging as Re15.

Here are the MVs from side by side testing done in the same 223 F-Class rifle with a 30-inch barrel:

Charge ........................ Re15 ........................... N203-B

23.6gn ......................... 2,818 .......................... 2,793 ( - 25 fps. Clean barrel - effectively fouling shots)

24.2gn ......................... 2,876 .......................... 2,869 (- 7ps)

24.5gn ......................... 2,916 .......................... 2,913 (-3 fps)

24.8gn ........................ 2,947 ........................... 2,951 (+ 4fps)

25.0gn ........................ 2,976 ........................... 2,979 (+ 3fps)

25.2gn ........................ 3,000 ........................... 3,024 (+ 24 fps)

Lapua match brass, Murom SR5,56M primer, 77gn Sierra MK 2.400" COAL (non-SAAMI additional freebore chamber).

Re15 6-group average: 0.33"; Norma 203-B 5-group average (discounting 23.6gn as 'foulers'): 0.33" (4-round groups, 100 yards, shot off the bench in calm conditions, some mirage at times.

I was actually surprised at how close the results were. The Re15 used is several years old, the 2-3-B 'fresh'

 

[choprzrul]

I'm curious....when was the last time anyone saw a new shipment of Norma powder here in the US? Was the PV clearance the last 'in stock' Norma powder?

 

[Mulligan]

I'm curious....when was the last time anyone saw a new shipment of Norma powder here in the US? Was the PV clearance the last 'in stock' Norma powder?

The last I seen was at PV at the beginning of 2021.
@BoydAllen, when did you grab the little bit you were able to get?
CW

 

[BoydAllen]

10 one pounders of Norma 203B it has been several months. I got it from Powder Valley.

 

[RegionRat]

Same here. N 203B came up as available and since it runs with Re-15 I grabbed some.

 

[alaskanicelander]

I know this thread is old, but has anyone found a good source for Norma? I see the powder manufacturing has been affected by the on going issues in Europe with Russia...according to one of the threads on this post.

Is there any updates that anyone has..I'm looking for 217 or MRP. I did contact US Norma on page 1 of this thread and the lady replying stated they do not sell to the public, but would not give me any additional info.
You would think the Norma USA company would pass on info like what was posted in this forum.

Also I'm seeing two different options for alternative powders. Reloading 300 Norma 210-215 grain bullets...appreciate anyone's success alternatives/recipes...thanks

 

[choprzrul]

I know this thread is old, but has anyone found a good source for Norma? I see the powder manufacturing has been affected by the on going issues in Europe with Russia...according to one of the threads on this post.

Is there any updates that anyone has..I'm looking for 217 or MRP. I did contact US Norma on page 1 of this thread and the lady replying stated they do not sell to the public, but would not give me any additional info.
You would think the Norma USA company would pass on info like what was posted in this forum.

Also I'm seeing two different options for alternative powders. Reloading 300 Norma 210-215 grain bullets...appreciate anyone's success alternatives/recipes...thanks

I’m sure hoping Norma powder finds its way into the USA soon…

 

[MUP]

PV hasn't had Norma in stock in quite a while, unless I've missed it somehow, entirely possible lol

 

[Juppe12]

Eurenco owned Vihtavuori before Nammo. Eurenco almost closed Vihtavuori plant so Nammo was formed by Finnish and Norwegian governments. When Eurenco owned Vihtavuori it was almost impossible to buy Vihtavuori powder here in Finland time to time, it just did not exist. Eurenco never did get Vihtavuori profitable because they did not invest anything on plant, they ran it as long as possible, ended primer production and in the end they were closing whole factory. Strange that Nammo did get Vihtavuori profitable almost immediately, maybe there is a little difference making business scandinavian way than french way?

 

[KMart]

Eurenco owned Vihtavuori before Nammo. Eurenco almost closed Vihtavuori plant so Nammo was formed by Finnish and Norwegian governments. When Eurenco owned Vihtavuori it was almost impossible to buy Vihtavuori powder here in Finland time to time, it just did not exist. Eurenco never did get Vihtavuori profitable because they did not invest anything on plant, they ran it as long as possible, ended primer production and in the end they were closing whole factory. Strange that Nammo did get Vihtavuori profitable almost immediately, maybe there is a little difference making business scandinavian way than french way?

You have to want to make a business profitable. Eurenco accomplished exactly what they intended to do when they bought Vihtavuori. That was to get every Franc they could out of a company without investing money into it. Then sell off a wore out production facility at pennies on the dollar.