What happened to Norma Powders?

[WyleWD]

Mildly double-based (4.5% nitroglycerin IIRC) and short cut extruded powders. According to Norma's burn-rate chart - which is of a completely different type to everybody else's based on same charge weight of each powder in a 308 Win load tested for pressure/MV and indexed against IMR-4350 - N201 is close to H4895 and N202 is only slightly faster burning than 203-B/Re15 (but the latter has a higher nitroglycerin level). That makes 202 maybe close to VarGet, bit faster burning if there is a difference.

https://www.norma-ammunition.com/en-gb/reloading-data

You'll find the burn rate chart in here.

I'd say N201 is faster burning than H4895 though in practical terms. I wouldn't want to load it up as much. Same applications such as 222 and 223 Rem, the latter with lighter bullets up to 55gn and thereabouts. For heavier bullets in 223 and standard / mid-weight bullets in 308 Win N202 is better and/or 203-B/Re15 beyond a certain point. I had good, but not my very best results with 223 and the 77gn SMK in a longer than Wylde chamber and long-barrel F rifle with 202. 0.4gn less than my top H4895 'benchmark' charge gave similar MVs. I have yet to try 201 in this rifle with the 77.

Thank you VERY much for sharing all that. I appreciate it. WD

 

[257ack]

I am running low on my Norma 201 that I use in my 22ppc. I have found that a few grs less of Imr8208xbr works almost as well but I am running low on that also

 

[choprzrul]

So....back to the question....where is all of the Norma powder??? Are folks in Europe seeing it available? It seems to be unobtanium in the US...

 

[Murray Brook]

Just called the 1 912 800 9281# and got an answer. The lady on the phone told me they had nothing to do with powder and had no info on where or when I could get some. She told me to get in touch with my local distributer for more info.

 

[Dave M.]

I am loving URP and 204 for my 6.5x47 but slowly running out of the supply I originally ordered from Powder Valley. I recently asked them when they were getting more in (or if they were getting more in at some point) and they say they aren't expecting any future shipments at all. I went on the trusty inter-webs and found other small dealers and inquired there, and they too no longer carry it. I emailed Western/Ramshot and got no response back. Anyone have any insight? Anything similar anyone can recommend that isn't unbotanium like H4350. I have N555 which seems to model similarly in GRT - hopefully this will be available again some time in the foreseeable future - before I run out. Staball 6.5 which I also have models to 95% case capacity where I start reaching theoretical pressure, as well as low 2700s, but will try that too.

Personally, I had high hopes for Staball 6.5 when it first came out. I ordered a 8lb jug of it and it took me less than 1lb to determine I didn’t like it and really had no plans to use it going forward. No matter how hard I tried I could never get the single digit SDs I was (and still am getting with H4350). In my girlfriends 6.5CM Stolle Panda, at 42.3g we are consistently getting 20 shot SDs in the sub 5fps range (sometimes as low as 3fps). Best we could do with Staball after trying a VERY wide range of powder charges, was an SD of 11.8fps.

dave

 

[Sebrock]

Personally, I had high hopes for Staball 6.5 when it first came out. I ordered a 8lb jug of it and it took me less than 1lb to determine I didn’t like it and really had no plans to use it going forward. No matter how hard I tried I could never get the single digit SDs I was (and still am getting with H4350). In my girlfriends 6.5CM Stolle Panda, at 42.3g we are consistently getting 20 shot SDs in the sub 5fps range (sometimes as low as 3fps). Best we could do with Staball after trying a VERY wide range of powder charges, was an SD of 11.8fps.

dave

Interesting. In my 6.5 Creedmoor I used 43.5g and my SD 4.9 and ES 16 on the last 50 shot string I measured - which is pretty much what it generally looks like. Not sure what the average group size was but have shot .2 moa with this set up (I think my front rest and bag where keeping me from shooting smaller). Testing this on the 6.5x47 next week but model wise it looks slow.

 

[AlNyhus]

Good luck on any dealings with RUAG.

Like Forrest Gump said: "And that's all I'm going to say about that."

 

[choprzrul]

Good luck on any dealings with RUAG.

Like Forrest Gump said: "And that's all I'm going to say about that."

I guess I'm stubborn.....I sent them an email anyway

 

[MSS]

As posted above…I’ve also had good luck with 203b as an RL 15 substitute.

 

[Capt. Oblivious]

When I ran low on RL-15, I substituted N-203B. Burn rate and pressures were almost identical. Bought six pounds from Powder Valley, they had a good supply at the time. Sad to hear P.V. will no longer be handling it, it's a very good powder.

It is exactly the same powder form the same plant just in 2 different containers

edit, sorry I see Laurie already pointed that out

 

[KMart]

This may or may not be interesting. It is dated 10/2/21 and states they are still in business.
Bofors Eurenco is French owned. Did Trump or Biden piss off the French Govt?

Alfred Nobel's gunpowder factory is still in business in Sweden a century on

Alfred Nobel's last laboratory still exists, a stone's throw from a big explosives plant that his Inventions and late-in-life business interests spawned.

www.thelocal.com

 

[Sebrock]

This may or may not be interesting. It is dated 10/2/21 and states they are still in business.
Bofors Eurenco is French owned. Did Trump or Biden piss off the French Govt?

Alfred Nobel's gunpowder factory is still in business in Sweden a century on

Alfred Nobel's last laboratory still exists, a stone's throw from a big explosives plant that his Inventions and late-in-life business interests spawned.

www.thelocal.com

Yes, Biden royally with his submarine sale to Australia. The French Ambassador left the US because of it. Cant read behind the paywall - is Bofors owned by RUAG? RUAG GMBH is German but they are divided into a German and Swiss company. Big defense contractor, including aerospace. Sounds like they could give a rats ass about gun powder. It's like if General Dynamics or Northrop Grumman owned Hodgdon.

 

[Mulligan]

In Submarine Deal With Australia, U.S. Counters China but Enrages France (Published 2021)

The reaction signals a widening rift among Western allies over China. French officials accused President Biden of acting like his predecessor.

www.nytimes.com

I guess 66 billion is sales is a big deal?

CW

 

[Sebrock]

In Submarine Deal With Australia, U.S. Counters China but Enrages France (Published 2021)

The reaction signals a widening rift among Western allies over China. French officials accused President Biden of acting like his predecessor.

www.nytimes.com

I guess 66 billion is sales is a big deal?

CW

And they got there only selling me 16 pounds of powder. I wonder if they will mention their lack of powder availability and crappy customer services at their next shareholder meeting - probably a good time to short the stock.

This sucks, Im never going to find more 204 and URP am I.

 

[Mulligan]

And they got there only selling me 16 pounds of powder. I wonder if they will mention their lack of powder availability and crappy customer services at their next shareholder meeting - probably a good time to short the stock.

This sucks, Im never going to find more 204 and URP am I.

I suspect they will get over it soon enough. The world economy isn't so strong right now that they can afford to ignore the incredible volume (and profits) available with sales in the US for very darn long.
Just my opinion though.
CW

 

[std7mag]

Nope only 204 and URP. Unfortunately I think you are right. It’s strange being able to find primers now, but powder has disappeared.

Wait....
Where have you seen primers??

Norma powder has always been hard to find here in central PA.
Ditto for some Ramshot powders. Especially Big Game.

Alliant has been hard to find in the past year. So when i saw some PP4000MR for $35 lb, i bought 2.

 

[Sebrock]

I suspect they will get over it soon enough. The world economy isn't so strong right now that they can afford to ignore the incredible volume (and profits) available with sales in the US for very darn long.
Just my opinion though.
CW

Or they can do it the old fashion way and just lobby to make more wars. CIA is probably pretty bored now that they are mostly outside of Afghanistan so I hear they are available. Thats always good for profits too

Just joking, I agree. What will most likely happen at some point is that a private equity group group or Vista Outdoors will buy them, market them and plug them into their distribution network big rather than just partnering with a distributor like Western. Frankly Im surprised it hasnt happened already - but again big defense contractors arent always the fastest and if they are anything like ours here, they like to buy rather than divest - unless its a huge division that pays for a bigger yacht for the CEO.

 

[Sebrock]

Wait....
Where have you seen primers??

Norma powder has always been hard to find here in central PA.
Ditto for some Ramshot powders. Especially Big Game.

Alliant has been hard to find in the past year. So when i saw some PP4000MR for $35 lb, i bought 2.

Yes I see primers all the time. Since I switched from 6.5 creedmoor to 6.5x47 I have more than 10k of 450s - they seem much easier to find these days. I see them all the time at Brownells and Midway. I also see LRPs but not as often. Seems like CCI is busting them out and Federal trickling them out. I set up a primer search on AmmoSeek.

Western/Ramshot was the distributor for Norma so it would make sense that Ramshot and Norma were hard to get. I assume it isnt so easy to find powder to white label if you dont make it yourself these days.

 

[KMart]

- is Bofors owned by RUAG? RUAG GMBH

Eurenco.......French

 

[Sebrock]

Eurenco.......French

Doesnt that mean that Nobel and Norma have nothing to do with each other then? Two different companies. Norma is owned by RUAG the German defense contractor. Unless Nobel uses the Norma factory that is like 100 something years old but my guess is no since the article is about the Nobel factory. Again cant get to the article so not sure what is says.