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Weight sorting cases... opinions solicited

DougMH said:
Oh! I love to shoot in matches against guys who "... don't waste their time..."

First off...I will shoot a 1000 yard match against anyone on the planet.....or for an entire season , for that matter.....Maybe catch you at nats....And that will take care of the patronizing bull$h!++.

As far as the topic at hand...Ill be happy to listen to your expanation (being you must be a multiple national champion) on how cases with EXACT outside dementions can weigh the same but have different interior volume. Only explanation is that the metal in each brass has a diff SG.

I am all ears.

Oh ya....don't bother with any more of the bu!!$hi+...If I am wrong then splain it to me Lucy.
 
Unfortunately, I believe that everyone is sort of right. I bought 500 pieces of new Lapua 6.5X284 Lapua brass several years ago to fireform for my 284 Shehane and I decided to try to answer that question. And the answer is that, at least in this test, there was a definite upward trend to the average velocity as the weight of the cases increased but the range of velocities for cases of the same weight was very wide. I tested 50 cases out of the 500 most of which came from both ends of the weight range along with some in the middle. The cases were fired in random order. The lightest case weighed 193 grains and the heaviest case 198 grains and, on average, the heaviest cases were 20 fps faster than the lightest cases with the average of all of them at about 2930 fps. It takes about 0.4 grains of powder to change the average velcocity with that load by 20 fps. The lowest velocity of the lightest case was 2915 and the highest velocity of the heaviest case was 2963. However the highest velocity among the lightest cases was only 7 fps slower than the lowest velocity among the heaviest cases.

Clearly, there are factors at work here other than case weight and I strongly suspect that case volume is one of them. But I agree with those who want to avoid "eye gouging" because I been able to keep my ES in the very low teens or even high single digits by keeping the spreads of case weight within a string in a range of about 0.3 grains and by sorting the cases in strings by decreasing weights and the bullets by increasing weights which seems to just about offset the tendency of the rounds to go a bit faster as the gun heats up.

A bit tedious but I've never wanted to gouge my eyes out like I did when I thought I wanted to measure the water volume of 500 pieces of brass. I think I did about 3 before I realized that the weights were not repeatable and gave up. Maybe it could be done for 50 pieces of BR quality brass but it doesn't seem practical or necessary for a high volume format like F-Class. but weight sorting is and does appear to reduce some of the variability.
 
Tony,

I absolutly agree....You must sort casses ...ok...mayby "must" is a little harsh...I have been beat by guys who just load and shoot...but...but...not in the long run, Maybe a few times. But to be cosnsistantly consistant ;D I think you need to sort brass.

I used to weigh 300 brass into groups of .1 grain...and number them from lightest to heaviest with one of those vibratory thingys (that is an industry term), and shoot them in order. I had a pretty good season that year.

Now I just cull out the very lightest few and heaviest few, and split them up into groups of 50. My seasons have not been as good since.

Maybe it's time to get out the vibratory thingy!! ;)

Oh ya...i don't do much F class...mostly 1K br. When I talk about sorting brass and bullets to the F class guys they just look at me kinda funny and shake thier heads. Go figure.
 
"how cases with EXACT outside dementions can weigh the same but have different interior volume. "

I used to wondered the same thing. But try taking a mic reading on the webs. If you true up necks you'll see that brass that weighs the same do have different neck and body thickness variations. How about the rim and groove? And how many Lapua primer pockets clean up with a .125” tool? I think it is a matter of where the weight is. With BR Lapua I've found a solid correlation between weight and capacity only with the very heavy pieces and very light pieces. But when dealing with the 80-90% of the cases in the middle weight range there is no linear correlation between weight and volume and you can knock off some FPS variation by volume sorting. From what I hear other brands and calibers of brass are even worse when it comes to weight volume correlation.
 
BillSlattery said:
"how cases with EXACT outside dementions can weigh the same but have different interior volume. "

I used to wondered the same thing. But try taking a mic reading on the webs. If you true up necks you'll see that brass that weighs the same do have different neck and body thickness variations. How about the rim and groove? And how many Lapua primer pockets clean up with a .125” tool? I think it is a matter of where the weight is. With BR Lapua I've found a solid correlation between weight and capacity only with the very heavy pieces and very light pieces. But when dealing with the 80-90% of the cases in the middle weight range there is no linear correlation between weight and volume and you can knock off some FPS variation by volume sorting. From what I hear other brands and calibers of brass are even worse when it comes to weight volume correlation.

Ok...I can see where you are comming from...it makes sence....but...

I just measured 20 new casses....all were exactly the same in the web.. .4045... I had a hard time measuring the actual rim thickness....best I could come up with is a .001 variation, but like I said...this is a rough measurment with an inapropriate tool for the job

So my question is this...how much does a .001 thick piece of brass that is .4705" in diameter weigh...and how much, measured in percentage, would that weight affect interior volume of a 6br sized case?
 
What I do is weight sort the brass from the heaviest to the lightest and then load and shoot them in that order, bullets are weight sorted as well. I have found this to really reduce my verticle dispersion at 1000 yards.
 
By web I meant from the inside bottom of the case to the outside of the head. You measured the outside diameter. I measured the web on 10 cut off cases just a few days ago for a primer experiment. Granted they were probably from 4 or 5 different lots of Lapua 6BR brass. But they were good and spread out from .1644” to .1750”. You'll need at least 2” mic to measure good brass. Friday I just primer pocket uniformed 40 twice fired in a forming barrel brass that weigh within a couple tenths of a grain and 5 are hardly touched and 3 no where near being uniformed by a Sinclair uniformer.
 
Ackman said:
This horse has been dead for a long time. And people keep beating on it.

Agreed and I wish people would make better use of the search function on this site. On the otherhand, a lot of people were very patient and helpful with me when I was starting out and I believe it is everyone's interest to keep more people involved in shooting.

Just a quck aside and a little off-topic, but my wife sent me this while I was contemplating activities that invite "eye-gouging" responses:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_CDLBTJD4M

I can't even imagine the patience required to pull that off.
 
Well so far it seems anyone who has correlated case weight to volume has concluded that it's not a direct relationship. This, by reloaders who have actually done it.

The dead horse IMO, is that weighed cases MUST correlate with volume, as declared by those who apparently haven't even checked it...
 
Yep, but guys like me that look for an easier way out may have a somewhat viable alternative to trying to get consistent readings with water. I'm thinking that most of the discrepancy lays in the web thickness. So how about a pedestal with a column that fits inside a case real nice and allows for a good reading on web thickness with a dial indicator? Taking neck turning out of it, radical case sorting would go, mark the light and heavy odd ones, mark the odd rim sizes, mark the odd primer pockets, you could even check groove diameter, and then sort the rest, that should be a good majority, by web thickness. I haven't gotten around to trying it yet. But I can't think of where else the weight volume discrepancy could lay.
Edit: Beside variations in the wall thickness.
 
mikecr said:
Well so far it seems anyone who has correlated case weight to volume has concluded that it's not a direct relationship. This, by reloaders who have actually done it.

The dead horse IMO, is that weighed cases MUST correlate with volume, as declared by those who apparently haven't even checked it...

Mike.
I would be interested in hearing about any comparisons you've done shooting the same load with the cases sorted by weight against cases sorted by volume or even sorted by both weight and volume if that amkes any sense.
 
I have a test set up in .223 to try to figure out if weight sorting is worth while. I have 20 rounds loaded - 10 have cases weighing the same (to .1 gr), the other 10 are 2 grains heavier! I plan on chrnonographing the loads and looking for any difference....

-Mark
 
My occupation doesn't afford me the time to scientifically debunk benchrest shortcuts embraced today. All I hold for basis is reasoning, objectivity, and observation.

It makes sense to me that cases should be matched by capacity.
Would it hurt anything? Not in any way I can imagine..
I culled cases by weight, fully fireformed them, and measured their capacities. I found that their weight -vs- capacity did not directly correlate.
So from that point onward, I weigh only to save time, and after FF'g I cull by H20 capacity and enter it in my Quickload cartridge file.
With this, and a damn good chrongraph, there are few surprises for me.

Why do I imply weighing cases alone as a BR shortcut? Because that's just what it amounts to. 'Competitors' could take the extra time to measure and match by capacity with no ill affects, but many don't, because many don't have to, or can't.
Undercapacity cartidges run at very high pressures burn up their powder early, resulting in lower muzzle pressures even with shorter barrels, and so producing better bullet release and wide tune. It's pretty much fool-proof, hence the popularity, irregardless of practicality.
There is also 'some' correlation between weight/capacity. So I'm sure weighing alone helps a little..
And finally, because running very high pressures is not a free lunch(nothing is), competitive BR cases must be FL sized, and this mangles consistency in capacity anyway.

Hunting systems are far more diverse, even more challenging, and there are few direct correlations to BR.
Why would there be? Their function is a complete opposite.
And why assign credit to basis that holds 'easy' as 'good enough in competition', therefore good enough otherwise?
 
mikecr said:
My occupation doesn't afford me the time to scientifically debunk benchrest shortcuts embraced today. All I hold for basis is reasoning, objectivity, and observation.

It makes sense to me that cases should be matched by capacity.
Would it hurt anything? Not in any way I can imagine..
I culled cases by weight, fully fireformed them, and measured their capacities. I found that their weight -vs- capacity did not directly correlate.
So from that point onward, I weigh only to save time, and after FF'g I cull by H20 capacity and enter it in my Quickload cartridge file.
With this, and a damn good chrongraph, there are few surprises for me.

Why do I imply weighing cases alone as a BR shortcut? Because that's just what it amounts to. 'Competitors' could take the extra time to measure and match by capacity with no ill affects, but many don't, because many don't have to, or can't.
Undercapacity cartidges run at very high pressures burn up their powder early, resulting in lower muzzle pressures even with shorter barrels, and so producing better bullet release and wide tune. It's pretty much fool-proof, hence the popularity, irregardless of practicality.
There is also 'some' correlation between weight/capacity. So I'm sure weighing alone helps a little..
And finally, because running very high pressures is not a free lunch(nothing is), competitive BR cases must be FL sized, and this mangles consistency in capacity anyway.

Hunting systems are far more diverse, even more challenging, and there are few direct correlations to BR.
Why would there be? Their function is a complete opposite.
And why assign credit to basis that holds 'easy' as 'good enough in competition', therefore good enough otherwise?

The time limitations do make it difficult to prove everything you do is important or the best way to proceed. And I believe that your proposed two step process of weight sorting first and then weeding out the fliers from the reduced number of cases could well be the most practical way forward. My data does support some benefit from the initial weight sort with a few fliers remaining. I was just looking at a graph I did of about 25 of those 50 extreme weight cases I was refering to earlier and the graph would have been a lot tighter with 5 of the 25 culled out, possibly by volume sorting. I still have that set of cases. Maybe I'll find the time to test the idea.
 
I've done it....fired, uniformed, then measured caseweight and volume of .223 cases, both Win. and IMI headstamp. There was NO correlation between weight and volume, NONE. Weight sorting new virgin brass is a complete waste of time. Weight sorting fired/prepped brass and thinking it'll mean uniformity where it matters - internally - is also a waste of time. But people will keep doing it and keep posting about it.
 
Ackman said:
I've done it....fired, uniformed, then measured caseweight and volume of .223 cases, both Win. and IMI headstamp. There was NO correlation between weight and volume, NONE. Weight sorting new virgin brass is a complete waste of time. Weight sorting fired/prepped brass and thinking it'll mean uniformity where it matters - internally - is also a waste of time. But people will keep doing it and keep posting about it.

Looks like I may have a new spring project!!!

KRAP >:(
 
+10 Mikecr and Ackman. I've have measured internal volume for hundreds of cases in different brands and calibers as a means of customizing Quickload. Even with Lapua brass, the correlation between case weight and internal volume is valid less than 50% of the time. For some brands of brass it's less than 30%.

By weight sorting you end up retaining some cases that should be rejected (when measured by volume) while rejecting some cases that have an internal volume consistent with your selection criterion.
 
I'm fairly new to reloading but it seemed to me that case weighing was pointless but case volume was worth investigating,

Having access to self zeroing burettes etc I tried measuring case volume with water, after doing several cases and trying various approaches I found the whole thing to be an exercise in frustration and decided not to bother with H20.

The easiest approach for me I found was to fill cases with a very fine play sand, fill to the top of case, tap twice on the bench and then top the case up, then using a scalpel or similar to level the case off.

The sand was weighed using a 505 type scale (not ideal but) and I was surprised that the variance seemed quite wide. The weighed cases were marked with a permanent marker, then batched into groups with a 1.0 grain difference.

After measuring any remaining sand grains were removed with a final going over with compressor and blowgun.

Not having access to Quickload the H2O volume would have little meaning to me but I do intend purchasing it, at which time I will re-measure the fired Norma case volumes and take three cases from each batch, using H2o to find the volume and averaging that for Quickload calculations.

Group sizes were improved enough that I will be checking volumes again in the future on new brass.
 
Ok, I'll play!...

So, I only weight sort brass, but believe that volume sorting would be more accurate, the question is, how much more accurate?

At what distance are groups being shot and what improvements are you guys shooting? Can you turn a 8" 20 shot group at 1000 yards into a 5" group?

I'm just trying to weigh the benefits against the PITA of sorting hundreds of pieces of brass!
 

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