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Weight Sorting Brass

@Hermantk any particular reason for digging up a seven year old thread?
I dont know why you would dig up an old thread, so many people say to use the search button, he did and now he get grief from that too. Maybe after 7 years sorting by weight doesnt matter anymore.

Confidence in your equipment is half the battle, if sorting by weight builds that confidence then by all means you should do it. . It takes no time and it certainly doesn't hurt
 
Someone a long time ago said they were going to make something that would measure volume in a case kind of like putting air in a car cylinder! I told him to make two so he would know whether the other was as accurate. Never heard anymore about it. I guess one other way of doing it is with a Chronograph, Sort by velocity.

Joe Salt
 
I sort all brass (out of habit) for accuracy rifles by weight (after full prep/processing). - I believe that for larger cartridges there is some validity to doing so and it makes me feel better and the LabRadar substantiated the sorting.

- I'm not here to derail the thread but I'm of the mindset that if an extra step (such as weighing brass) builds / adds to confidence then it's a good thing for that individual reloader / shooter.

- Ron -
 
@Hermantk any particular reason for digging up a seven year old thread?
Good question. I was reading the thread looking for information. I found a lot of good info and what i believed was some mis-information. So, knowing that, in future, others would also be reading this, I thought i should correct it. I think we all contribute here to make things better for others, and so "accuracy" would seem to be important.
 
I sort all brass (out of habit) for accuracy rifles by weight (after full prep/processing). - I believe that for larger cartridges there is some validity to doing so and it makes me feel better and the LabRadar substantiated the sorting.

- I'm not here to derail the thread but I'm of the mindset that if an extra step (such as weighing brass) builds / adds to confidence then it's a good thing for that individual reloader / shooter.

- Ron -
Remember this:"Accuracy is the cumulative effect of all that you do". Better custom actions, better custom barrels, better custom stocks, better custom triggers, better scopes ALL contribute to the accuracy possibility of the rifle itself. By the same token, ALL that you do for your ammunition will enhance it's potential for obtaining a high level of accuracy. Excellent brass, every "preparatory steps" you take to make your brass as same / similar as each piece can be to the other, doing the same with weigh sorting / measuring bullets, the same with powder>>>>ALL contributes to consistency! Eventually you get down to VERY diminishing returns on your time / effort invested>>>>BUT they ARE returns nonetheless! It boils down to your level of tolerance to all these steps that you feel is necessary to win in your respective shooting discipline! You are correct Ron, if it contributes to accuracy, and you believe it does>>>do it! There is nothing wrong with "going the extra mile"!
 
I like brass grouped in multiples of 5. So I weighed them to the 10ths then grouped them because I had so many groups and it was hard to keep up with.

There biggest thing was not to be shooting the lightest with the heaviest in the same 5.
Same with primers & bullets.

My groups got better.... BUT....

My barrel could have starting shooting better (broke in), my ability could have gotten better (bench time). Weather could have played a role (600yds less mirage)

I can discredit it if I want ... I like playing with my toys so I'll keep sorting, measuring, trimming, cleaning, weighing .....
My sandbox I'll do what I want !
 
Since its the same stuff being rolled around we all could use the search....
But what's the fun in that ?! :)
 
@Hermantk any particular reason for digging up a seven year old thread?

I'd be interested to see how many times this same question has been asked and by how many other people since this thread was created back on 3/21/2012.

For this topic I think most here would agree that not much new / relevant info, products, technique has been learned or developed since this thread was started.

Slightly Unlike,
What is the best spotting scope to see bullet holes in the black at 200, 300, 600 yards.
New spotting scopes have been marketed in the last seven years, right?
Primary use for quality spotting scope is Still Seeing Mirage and if people have their spotting scope focused in an attempt to see bullet holes in the paper they will never see this mirage.
That question is still a mirage in that Pandora's box that keeps getting opened but at least new scopes have been marketed...

George :)
 
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I sorted 100 Lapua .223 cases and they range from 95.3-96.2 grains (by weight, not volume)

I separated them--50 at 95.3-95.7, and 50 at 95.8-96.2 grains.

Am I being too fussy? is the 9/10 of a grain difference in weight with the whole batch so small...that it won't really MAKE a difference?

What is the general rule for case weight difference-in a batch of brass-that you sort, for say...small cases, med cases, and larger cases--like 7 Rem Mag? Thanks!

Someone on his website did a comparision of wt. and volume. There was no correlation.
 
View attachment 1130963

@Webster - I have posted numerous times on this topic here using actual case weight and case volume data, some of which came from .223 Rem brass. In fact, there is a very strong and reproducible linear correlation between case weight and case volume.

Posted 7 Mar 2019 by South Pender

upload_2019-10-10_0-22-7.png
View attachment 1130963

@Webster - I have posted numerous times on this topic here using actual case weight and case volume data, some of which came from .223 Rem brass. In fact, there is a very strong and reproducible linear correlation between case weight and case volume.
 

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Case Wt vs Case Vol.jpg C-V Case Wt vs Vol 2-01-17.jpg

Webster - I can tell you solely by eye that the two graphs you posted (which appear to be the same graph by the way) also strongly support a direct linear relationship between case weight and case volume. The data they contain is actually fairly representative of a good weight/volume sort. You can unquestionably see the trend of case volume decreasing as case weight increases; i.e. the best fit line of the scatterplot data has a negative slope. Here are two of many such similargraphs I have generated over the years, more or less representing "best-" and "worst-" case scenarios.

I doubt anyone will claim the relationship is perfect. In other words, there will always be some values farther off the the trend line than others (i.e. "outliers"). Nonetheless, determination of the correlation coefficient for the best straight line plotted through any of the data sets you or I posted clearly shows a strong linear correlation between case weight and case volume. In fact, this clear linear relationship begs the question, are the outliers due to a weaker correlation between case weight and case volume, or or they more likely due to volume determination error? Having spent many decades in laboratory research where accurate liquid volumetric determination was absolutely essential, I favor the latter explanation. Accurate/precise case water volume determination is not trivial, whereas determining case weight is ridiculously simple for anyone that owns an accurate balance.

The whole reason for sorting cases by weight is an extension of the same idea; it is far simpler and faster to sort cases by weight than it is to accurately determine water volume. Again, I doubt anyone will claim the approach is perfect, as clearly shown by the fact that there will always be some "outliers". However, even using the data provided in the two graphs you posted, it is clear that if those cases were sorted into 3 or 4 weight groups, the volume variance within any single group would be less than the volume variance of the entire set. That is exactly what weight sorting cases can achieve with minimal time and effort. You will end up with less case volume variance in weight-sorted cases than if you did nothing at all. In other words, not perfect, but better than not sorting at all. I can typically sort 100 cases by weight in 15-20 minutes. Sorting the same number of cases by volume would take hours if done properly.

A better illustration of what I'm talking about can be made using the brass weight versus volume graph you posted above (see below). I modified that graph to show the linear trend line (red), and the effect on volume variance of dividing those cases up into three roughly equal weight sorting groups (Low/Med/Hi, shown in blue/green/red ). The overall volume variance for all the cases is ~ 1.9 gr. Sorting the cases by weight would reduce the volume variance within each individual weight group by ~1/3 to as much as 1/2. Sorting into 4 weight groups and/or more judicious setting of weight group boundaries would have reduced the actual case volume variance even further.

The bottom line is that sorting cases by weight can reduce case volume variance. It's not perfect, but it's relatively fast and easy, and it's better than not sorting cases at all.

Brass Sort.jpg
 
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View attachment 1130974 View attachment 1130975

Webster - I can tell you solely by eye that the two graphs you posted (which appear to be the same graph by the way) also strongly support a direct linear relationship between case weight and case volume. The data they contain is actually fairly representative of a good weight/volume sort. You can unquestionably see the trend of case volume decreasing as case weight increases; i.e. the best fit line of the scatterplot data has a negative slope. Here are two of many such similargraphs I have generated over the years, more or less representing "best-" and "worst-" case scenarios.

I doubt anyone will claim the relationship is perfect. In other words, there will always be some values farther off the the trend line than others (i.e. "outliers"). Nonetheless, determination of the correlation coefficient for the best straight line plotted through any of the data sets you or I posted clearly shows a strong linear correlation between case weight and case volume. In fact, this clear linear relationship begs the question, are the outliers due to a weaker correlation between case weight and case volume, or or they more likely due to volume determination error? Having spent many decades in laboratory research where accurate liquid volumetric determination was absolutely essential, I favor the latter explanation. Accurate/precise case water volume determination is not trivial, whereas determining case weight is ridiculously simple for anyone that owns an accurate balance.

The whole reason for sorting cases by weight is an extension of the same idea; it is far simpler and faster to sort cases by weight than it is to accurately determine water volume. Again, I doubt anyone will claim the approach is perfect, as clearly shown by the fact that there will always be some "outliers". However, even using the data provided in the two graphs you posted, it is clear that if those cases were sorted into 3 or 4 weight groups, the volume variance within any single group would be less than the volume variance of the entire set. That is exactly what weight sorting cases can achieve with minimal time and effort. You will end up with less case volume variance in weight-sorted cases than if you did nothing at all. In other words, not perfect, but better than not sorting at all. I can typically sort 100 cases by weight in 15-20 minutes. Sorting the same number of cases by volume would take hours if done properly.

A better illustration of what I'm talking about can be made using the brass weight versus volume graph you posted above (see below). I modified that graph to show the linear trend line (red), and the effect on volume variance of dividing those cases up into three roughly equal weight sorting groups (Low/Med/Hi, shown in blue/green/red ). The overall volume variance for all the cases is ~ 1.9 gr. Sorting the cases by weight would reduce the volume variance within each individual weight group by ~1/3 to as much as 1/2. Sorting into 4 weight groups and/or more judicious setting of weight group boundaries would have reduced the actual case volume variance even further.

The bottom line is that sorting cases by weight can reduce case volume variance. It's not perfect, but it's relatively fast and easy, and it's better than not sorting cases at all.

View attachment 1130979

Shoot the top group and the bottom group and see if there is a difference.
 
I've done it with my sorted brass. There is a difference.

Not trying to be a horses ass just trying to understand everything that’s involved.

1. A piece of copper wire .024 diameter x .440” long, wt. 1/2 grain. Two inches long would be the weight of typical max variation in cases.

2. The true volume of the case when the powder is ignited is the space behind the bullet, not up to the neck. The volume varies based on seating depth.

3. Weighing ignores the possibility that a large % of the case wt. is in the head and doesn’t contribute to volume.


Just for fun I weighed ten new unfired 6BR Lapua cases. I weighed them on a Hornady GS-1500 $40 electronic scale. I put a spacer about .400” high on the side off of the weighing pan. The cases were tipped at about a 30 degree angle. I weighed the cases with the case rim on the scale pan and the neck off of the scale pan on the spacer, also weighed with the neck on the scale pan and the entire case.


Trying to see the influence of the case head variation on the total wt. Looks like the case head wt. is a bigger variable the case body. It doesn’t contribute to volume.

upload_2019-10-12_15-37-35.png
 
My input:
1st - waste of time to do any qualification or segregation until they have been fired at least once, fully prepped, and trimmed.
2nd - waiting until they've been fired twice, even better yet - IME (or even after 3-firings)
Reason: they do not settle in to case capacity and dimensional stretch, until they have been fired at least once. Example data below:

Case Log2.png


Next (3rd), for the most factual qualification of cases, and after the volume: fallow on with both velocity and vertical dispersion.
4th - qualify and segregate them by a combination of all the data points gathered.

My 2-Cents
 
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Not trying to be a horse's a$$ either, but you might to use a better scale before you try to convince anyone that those readings are anything other than noise.

I have a standard wt. made of stainless steel. I weighed it at work to at least 5 decimals and rounded to two places. It's labeled 32.96 grains. It always weighs 33.0 grain on my Hornady scale. Good enough for me.
 
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