Vortex Razor HD 5-20x50

[jla956]

I have decided to purchase a Vortex Razor HD 5-20x50 for my Kimber 8400 Tactical. I would like to get some feedback and suggestions regarding the various options that they offer on this scope.

First off - should I go with a MOA or a MRAD model - what are the pros and cons? Next, which reticle and turret options?

On the MOA model they offer the EBR-1 reticle with either a 15 or 25 MOA turret, or a EBR-2B reticle with only a 25 MOA turret.

On the MRAD model they offer the EBR-2B reticle with either a 5 or 10 MRAD turret or the EBR-3 reticle with either a 5 or 10 MRAD turret.

I have never shot MRAD or Mil-Dot reticles so I'm only familiar with a standard MOA scope with a simple cross-hair reticle in 1/8 or 1/4 inch adjustments. So, even the MOA reticles that Vortex offers on this scope will be quite different from what I'm familiar with.

Thanks in advance for your suggestions and input.

 

[NateHaler]

I suggest you visit Snipers Hide and use the search function there, and possibly post your question there. It's a rude/lewd/crude bunch, compared to this forum, but they get all drool-ey over this sort of thing.

Also, contact Scott at Liberty Optics. Not only can he tell you what the product specs mean, but he'll probably also offer you the best price. He's a plain-spoken, heckuva good guy.

Lastly, maybe you should call Vortex Optics directly. A nicer bunch of optics folks you'll likely never meet. Get their phone contact info from their website.

 

[Huskerhunter]

Yes, agreed that the 'hide' is where the high end tactical scope conversations are ongoing. With that said, I ended with a Darrel Holland ART reticle Leupold MKIV a few years ago--essentially a MOA and MIL hashmark scope. Since then I've standardized all mys stuff to MOA. If you've been trained by the military you like/want mils. I started with MOAs and have all my drop calculations in MOA, etc. On the 'hide' they might look down their noses at MOA reticles/turrets vs. MILS.

Curious as to your settling on the Razor vs. Nightforce for example? I have a couple of Viper PST's and I can't really see the need for the Razor HD's. I also have a nightforce NSX with the MOAR reticle.

 

[brian427cobra]

I would answer the question the same as the Hide, if your a BR shooter or on shoot from a static position I would get a MOA scope, if you plan hunting or rapidly shooting from varying distances go MRAD, overall I prefer MRAD, it's a dead simple system that is used for more than ranging. PLEASE remember MOAs are not inches, and MRADs are not metric, don't try to convert either to a fixed unit of measurement, a Mil is a Mil a MOA is a MOA, another massive plus for Mils is just about every single scope maker offers a scope with Mil reticle with .1 MRAD knobs, no two scope makers offer the same MOA Reticle with matching knobs, I really like my Razor EBR3 scope.

 

[wwbrown]

First off the Razor HD 5-20 is a great scope they took a long time working in some very nice features. Whether you want to go MOA or milliradians may be what you are used to, I have always used MOA adjustments and reticles up until the having to work with some mrad scopes in the last 5 years and I find the mrad hard for me because I am used to MOA. I have a degree in mathematics and I understand that it is a simple conversion the problem is I think in MOA and I "see" all the adjustments in MOA because I have made 1,000's of shots and made corrections in MOA. With this handicap I would never buy a scope with reticle or turrets in milliradians.

If I were starting out fresh or from a limited background I would go with the millirad as 1 cm per milliradian at 100 meters makes more sense to the math side of me than 1 MOA per 1.047 inches at 100 yards.

Make your choice and work with it and you will be happy and ignore the folks that will tell this or that operator of spec ops use this or that. Many of the guys on the 'Hide will talk for hours on these subjects on the 'net and tend to think that berating someone with a different type/level of experience who is not 100% tacticool is more fun than actually getting out and shooting with real ammo on the range or in the field. You will probably never find your self in situations that those guys train for and it is your scope and your shooting so who cares what SEAL team XX uses when they are asked to accomplish some difficult job. Anyway those young men are so capable and well trained that they could do it with MOA or MRAD and still come home after getting the job done.

 

[brian427cobra]

Wade you just made a critical mistake, you assigned a hard value to a MRAD, they have no value unless one is assigned, 1 Mil is 1/1000 of any unit of measurement you would like to give it, 1 lightyear at 1000 lightyears, 1 inch at 1000 inches, assigning a hard value to MRADs is why people think there Metric, guess what Europeans are lazy and stupid too, hence MRAD scopes are improperly marked 1cm@100m. I will again recommend the correct tool for the job, static fixed position shooting from known distances go MOA, there is 21600 MOAs in a circle, is a finer unit of adjustment, this is the reason BR and F-Class shooters use it, on the MRAD side of scopes there is 6283 MRADs in a circle, its a corser unit of adjustment, and is the reason Snipers use it, rapid shots at varying distances where hits are hits and misses may cost you your life, if you look at the Precision Rifle Series you'll notice almost all the competitors use a MRAD scope, Jim See and Rick Reeves are the two MOA standouts. pick the correct tool for the job.

 

[Dgd6mm]

Brian, excellant post. I believe you explained it perfectly. These are the things that I have learned shooting different disciplines, most of them the hard way, simply by being hardheaded. I listen better these days to others. Experience is a great teacher. Getting back to the subject ( sorry about that ) I like the Razor and almost bought 1 but at that time on the Hide they were running the sale on the 5-20x50 SS and I bought 1 and have been using it since.

 

[wwbrown]

Bryan,

A couple of things both MOA and MRAD are angular measurements and not fixed values, I agree one milliradian (MRAD) is a little easier to understand as it is 1/1000 of the distance whereas 1 MOA is roughly 0.000239 times the distance. Simply they both describe angular measurements and we use the length of the arc length these angles subtend as the linear adjustment in our scopes.

Another issue when you say snipers use MRAD you should clarify which snipers as there are different groups of snipers in the US Armed Services using quite a wide variety of scopes. I have shot current weapon systems used by US Armed Forces for snipers that have milliradian and others that have MOA, granted most of them use milliradians. I had the opportunity to work with quite a few different groups of snipers when I worked ONESHOT, the DARPA program to build a wind estimation system that doped the wind between the muzzle and target.

I still stand behind my statement that you need to use what you are most familiar with, or possibly I am the only one who has difficulty going from measurement system to another. My estimates on fore corrections are far closer when I am using MOAs whether I am on a KD range or unknown distances. When I need to make the adjustments for milliradian scopes in my head I first make the estimation in MOA then convert this to milliradian. Estimates like this are pretty easy for me as I grew up just at the edge of calculators and learned estimation as a part of my science and engineering education and honed those skills teaching college Physics and never brought a calculator to class. Once again I may be the only person out there who thinks this way.