VLD bullets - short range vs. long range accuracy

[orkan]

If so, I have sold a couple of rifles in my life that would only group 2.5" at 100 yards. Couldn't do any better at all. Now your last sentence seems to me to mean had I shot these rifles at six times the distance....600 yards.....they MAY have produced a 3" group at that range. ( which would have been fine with me) Do I have this right?

That is what I'm saying, and the above analogy "could" happen, but I have never seen it happen on anything other than 375CT using solids. At least not seen it to a degree that something else couldn't have explained it. I've worked with 375's from 7 twist to 11 twist... and they all did this with solids.

 

[TZaun]

So 15-20 years ago I bought a box of 50 gr. Barnes Solids to try in my 22-250. They shot around the 6" area @ 100 yards and some of the holes looked kinda like bowling pins. All this time and I didn't know that I might have had a great 1000 yard round on my hands. 8)

 

[Erik Cortina]

I sent Bryan Litz a message, hopefully he will post on this thread and clarify things for us.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I"ll join the fight ;D. Groups (measured in moa) can and do get smaller at long range, it is the basis for how I tune. Heres a link that touches on how. It has nothing to do with stability. Scroll down the page almost to the bottom where it says long range tune.
http://www.varmintal.com/aeste.htm

 

[johara1]

I"ll join the fight ;D. Groups (measured in moa) can and do get smaller at long range, it is the basis for how I tune. Heres a link that touches on how. It has nothing to do with stability. Scroll down the page almost to the bottom where it says long range tune.
http://www.varmintal.com/aeste.htm

Alex, Tell how you had this happen ? I never did and i sure tried to have a sub .1 group at 1000 and have them all the time at 100……. jim

 

[JRS]

Quote:

"If you are in tune for zero vertical at 100 yards, you will not be in tune for zero vertical at 600 or 1000 yards".

 

[johara1]

Quote:

"If you are in tune for zero vertical at 100 yards, you will not be in tune for zero vertical at 600 or 1000 yards".

Why?…… I can't tune at 1000 because of the variables …. like 1mph wind change you can't see so how can you get the vertical out……. jim

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Jim, my good gun shoots .2s at 100, it has NEVER shot a .0 or .1. But it will shoot 2" for 5 at 1k consistently. I have seen this many times. A friend also tested by shooting through a target at 100 and 1k while testing loads. The best 100 yard groups were vertical at 1k and the vertical groups went flat at 1k. I also think you can tune a gun like you do. If it shoots zeros at 100 and you can get es to 3 fps then it will carry. I have never been able to consistently load ammo that good. I would say on average my es is 10-15 for 10. It agged great this year.

 

[savagedasher]

Jim, my good gun shoots .2s at 100, it has NEVER shot a .0 or .1. But it will shoot 2" for 5 at 1k consistently. I have seen this many times. A friend also tested by shooting through a target at 100 and 1k while testing loads. The best 100 yard groups were vertical at 1k and the vertical groups went flat at 1k. I also think you can tune a gun like you do. If it shoots zeros at 100 and you can get es to 3 fps then it will carry. I have never been able to consistently load ammo that good. I would say on average my es is 10-15 for 10. It agged great this year.

Alex you know I tune always at 100yd.My es is always 4 or under. Our last 600 paper match my first two targets was 1.652 and 1.059. Then I had a neck tension problem I choked . The only primers I can get my es down that low is wolf the 205m are next best at 8 es and cci are at 11. Larry

 

[Erik Cortina]

My es is always 4 or under.

I bet you it is not.

 

[johara1]

Jim, my good gun shoots .2s at 100, it has NEVER shot a .0 or .1. But it will shoot 2" for 5 at 1k consistently. I have seen this many times. A friend also tested by shooting through a target at 100 and 1k while testing loads. The best 100 yard groups were vertical at 1k and the vertical groups went flat at 1k. I also think you can tune a gun like you do. If it shoots zeros at 100 and you can get es to 3 fps then it will carry. I have never been able to consistently load ammo that good. I would say on average my es is 10-15 for 10. It agged great this year.

Alex, Barrel quality is big part of it all or maybe the twist i don't know which this year but my ES. has run under 10 this year and as low as 4 so i shouldn't see vertical. The conditions out where you are maybe a little better than here. I think at this point i'm the weak link…. jim

 

[orkan]

Interesting point about not being able to tune for 100 and distance at the same time. I had never really considered that. Not sure I subscribe, but the theory seems sound.

I don't think it applies to what I'm seeing with 375CT... as it is basically impossible to find a load at 100yds. I've never been able to do it. Changing seating depth or powder charge will not produce good groups at 100yds. It exhibits the same behavior regardless.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Now, I didn't say you can't tune at 100 and have it carry out to 1k. If you can tune as well as Jim and shoot 10 into .0s with a low single digit spread it should hold to 1k. I just find it easier for me to tune differently. And the theory about the bullets taking different paths to come together at a certain range is not theory, its fact.

 

[johara1]

Interesting point about not being able to tune for 100 and distance at the same time. I had never really considered that. Not sure I subscribe, but the theory seems sound.

I don't think it applies to what I'm seeing with 375CT... as it is basically impossible to find a load at 100yds. I've never been able to do it. Changing seating depth or powder charge will not produce good groups at 100yds. It exhibits the same behavior regardless.

Believe me,it isn't theory …… i do well with it…… jim

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I sent Bryan Litz a message, hopefully he will post on this thread and clarify things for us.

I just received Bryan's latest opus and I'm reading as fast as possible. He does write about this very issue.

 

[orkan]

I received a PM from a gentleman confirming that he has seen the same effect with solids in other cartridges aside from 375CT. He didn't want to post here, due to the hostile and argumentative nature of the thread... but agreed to let me post his PM in part. We both hope to generate some interest to see if better minds can explain whats going on.

I have had the opportunity to be involved with the design of of a new range of long range monolithic bullets. It was very interesting to me that we experience exactly the same phenomenon that you encountered with your 375CT. The bullet wouldn't shoot worth a damn at ranges less than 600m (~700 yards) and would then start really performing well at 800m.

We set up a test with me firing Bergers and another guy firing the monolithics to establish what the difference in wind effect was on the bullet, not very scientific I know but it confirmed that the bullets were performing erratically at close ranges. The other guy pulling the trigger is number 2 in the country in F-tr so he is no slouch. Once we went to 800m he started kicking my *** and the bullet was performing substantially better.

This led to a huge and lengthy discussion between us and the owner of the bullet company who maintained that it was mathematically and physically impossible for a bullet to group smaller (angular) at long range than it was grouping at short ranges. Very much like the discussion on the forum. We loaded some Bergers in the same gun with same shooter and the anomaly disappeared. After a couple of hundred rounds of more testing we finally managed to convince the bullet designers and owner but we still don't have a reasonable explanation.

We have a couple of theories of what might be causing it ranging from boat tail design to the fact that the copper doesn't conform to the shape of the barrel as soft lead would but these are all still theories. We did find that an older version of the bullet was showing much less of a problem and it had a sharper and shorter tail. It also had a very sharp transition. We also believe that the effect might be due to the inherent characteristics of solids. The bullet designers are busy whipping up some new bullets and hopefully we'll be able to get to the bottom if it soon.

He has some very good theories there I think. I've considered them myself, but with no way to quantify them, I moved on. It will be interesting to see his findings when some bullets with different designs are tested. As monolithics tend to be designed for maximum range, their long distance performance trumps the need for close range accuracy in most situations. Still, it would be nice to have a solid that does both.